The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. 1. Questions to the First Minister

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question, Jenny Rathbone.

&lt;p&gt;Sustainable Transport&lt;/p&gt;

Jenny Rathbone AC: 1. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's strategy on a modal shift to sustainable transport? (OAQ51080)

Carwyn Jones AC: We’re promoting sustainable transport by investing in our rail and bus services, by developing integrated public transport networks such as the metro in the north and south, ensuring active travel becomes more mainstream, and working with local partners to identify pinch-point areas and deliver infrastructure improvements to smooth traffic flow.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, First Minister. I just wanted to specifically focus on how we’re getting more people to bicycle, because I was very shocked when I had a delegation of year 12 students from St Teilo’s, all of whom are 16 or 17, and none of them were bicycling to school. One of them even said, ‘Oh, I live four miles away’, as if that was a long way to bicycle. If we look at the statistics, less than 3 per cent of children aged five to 16 go by bike, but 30 per cent, or more, go by car. If we can’t start with the current young generation, we’re never going to get the modal shift they’ve got in places like Holland, where 40 per cent go by bike, and, in one city in Denmark—the second city—80 per cent go by bicycle. So, what do you think the Government can do to really get that change in culture?

Carwyn Jones AC: The Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013, of course, is the basis for doing this, recognising that cycling, while important for health, is a mode of transport, and it’s important, as is walking, of course. I’ve always thought that in trying to encourage people to get onto bikes, it’s important that they feel safe, and a lot of people won’t go on the roads and mix with cars. In the countries that the Member’s mentioned, in the Netherlands, for example, and in Denmark, there is segregation between bikes and cars, and that’s one of the ways in which people can be encouraged to use bikes more. There’s a lot of work to be done, particularly in our cities, to establish bike routes into the cities. We have some bike routes that tend to take people away into the countryside, but we’re not yet in a position, I believe, where we can say that we have a proper network of urban cycle routes that will encourage the more reluctant cyclists to actually use a bike rather than feel they’ve got to compete with cars on the roads. But the active travel Act has begun the process of changing attitudes and encouraging local authorities to put in place proper provision for bikes.

Russell George AC: First Minister, a year ago, the Welsh Government’s position was that there were no immediate plans to use public funds for electric vehicle infrastructure. Now, since then, of course, the UK Government has stated its position to phase out diesel cars by 2040. Would you agree with me that it’s now essential that the Welsh Government does invest in electric vehicle charging points in town centres initially, and then further afield, to make that transition from diesel to electric cars a reality?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, we already do: for example, the on-street residential charge point scheme, which supports local authorities with 75 per cent of capital costs of procuring and installing residential charge points, and with an associated dedicated parking bay. It is a challenge now for all Governments to put in place the network of chargers that will be needed before 2040, and in particular ensuring standardisation as well of chargers. As somebody who drives a hybrid, there are several different sockets that are used, and it’s quite difficult to find the right charger. But I expect, over the next four or five years, particularly with intervention from Governments, including ourselves, building on what we’ve done already, we will see an expanding network of chargers, which will encourage more people then to look initially, I suspect, at hybrids, and then at fully electric vehicles.

Simon Thomas AC: I agree entirely on the point on electric vehicles. Perhaps I’ll turn back to cycling and how important it is that cycling is a part not only of the active travel plans, but also of the local authority travel plans. I have seen too many of these local plans referring to cycling in the context of leisure and sport and don’t put cycling at the heart of the plans as a means of transportation, and Carmarthenshire is an example of that. So, will you urge local authorities to ensure that cycling is a central party of planning for local transportation?

Carwyn Jones AC: It is central. Every local authority has to submit its initial maps of the new routes that they are going to develop within their area. They are now working on integrated network routes, and they have to submit them by 3 November this year, and then it will be possible to measure how much progress the authorities have made and how much more support they require in order to go at the right speed in the right direction.

&lt;p&gt;The UEFA European Football Championship&lt;/p&gt;

Gareth Bennett AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on Cardiff's bid to hold matches for the 2020 UEFA European Football Championships? (OAQ51086)

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. We’ve been meeting with the Football Association of Wales about this potential bid. We already have an ambitious major events strategy and we’ll continue to meet with the key stakeholders to consider how we can take this forward.

Gareth Bennett AC: Yes, thanks for the response. It’s usually potentially a good idea to make a bid for these large events due to the potential to generate revenue for local businesses, although there is also the possibility of disruption as well. So, there is a balance that we have to make. But we do have a problem at the moment with the state of Cardiff Central Square and also the possible lack of capacity of Cardiff Central railway station. So, are you confident that those issues will be resolved in time for those championships in the summer of 2020?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. Central Square is being developed rapidly now. With regard to Cardiff Central station, that’s a matter for Network Rail. We have pushed Network Rail. I’ve done it in meetings with Network Rail and it’s being done in other ways to redevelop Cardiff Central. It’s at a cost of hundreds of millions of pounds but, nevertheless, it’s a redevelopment that is needed. We know that, potentially, the passenger numbers at the station will increase three-fold over the next 30 years. With 11 million passengers a year going through the station, it’s by far the busiest in Wales and it’s growing. We’re almost at the point where trains are queuing to get into the station. So, we have impressed on Network Rail the need to invest in that station given the fact that for so many people it’s the gateway to Wales.

David Melding AC: First Minister, I commend what your Government and the previous administration has done to attract high-level events and how you’ve worked with the respective sporting associations. I think that’s a key partnership, and these sorts of achievements produce a gift that keeps on delivering because the marketing value—. People still talk about the wonderful days when the FA Cup was in Cardiff. Many people would like it back, or at least the semi-finals, which, of course, are in Wembley still because of their particular business model. But it really is an exciting way to market Wales and there’ve been great, great benefits, and you should really learn the lessons about how much a Government can do to market the nation as a whole.

Carwyn Jones AC: Very much so. We’ve learnt that over the years. Not long after I became First Minister, the Ryder Cup was held and that was a huge event: some 25,000 people there on the final day, millions watching around the world. And, of course, culminating with the Champions League final, which, ironically, was almost a consolation prize for us for not getting to be chosen as a venue for the 2020 championships. It’s a consolation prize we very much welcome, of course, in that regard. But what’s been key to this is the vision that was shown particularly in the 1990s to develop the Principality Stadium. It was controversial at the time, and he must remember that. But when we look back at the old stadium, it was basically a concrete bowl with toilets. That’s the way it was described. Now, of course, it’s a far more modern stadium we can attract these events. And it’s true to say that sport carries probably the greatest reach of all when it comes to promoting Wales, and we know, of course, with the Euros last year, that probably had the greatest effect in terms of signalling to people that Wales exists as a separate nation, and, of course, triggering more interest in Wales, therefore triggering more investment in time and more visitors.

Hefin David AC: To present a slightly contrary view, Llywydd, in evidence to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee last week, the Wales Tourism Alliance said that whilst the focus will need to remain on major international events, they only tend to benefit a small number of locations, particularly Cardiff. The chief executive of the European Tourism Operators Alliance agreed and said there were lots of reasons for having a party, but economic benefit for the tourism industry is not necessarily one of them. What is the First Minister’s view and how can the Government take steps to ensure that large-scale international events don’t harm the Welsh tourism industry?

Carwyn Jones AC: We can have both. One of the issues that we face with large-scale events is we have to ensure that people have places to stay outside Wales. The reality is the capacity isn’t there entirely in Wales to host people as they come to Wales. That will develop over time. It isn’t the case that it’s either spending money on major events or spending money on the rest of Wales. For example, we’ve supported tourism initiatives around Wales. We look at initiatives such as Surf Snowdonia in the north and the support we give to rural businesses around Wales. In some ways, a major event provides an immediate economic impact, but also, of course, it acts as a catalyst for developing interest in Wales and, therefore, for tourism around the whole of Wales. So, the immediate impact, it’s true to say, is more localised, but the longer term impact, in my view, is much broader, and that’s of course the way we’d want it to be.

&lt;p&gt;Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders&lt;/p&gt;

I call now on party leaders to question the First Minister. The leader of the opposition, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, last week, the Welsh Government presented its waiting list figures for the Welsh NHS, and the figures showed that, in Wales, one in seven people is on a waiting list, or 450,000 people. In England, that figure is one in 14. There are pressures across the United Kingdom when it comes to NHS services, and everyone acknowledges that. As we go into the busy winter months, and with the financial pressures that are on the Welsh NHS, with four of the seven health boards projecting a deficit in excess of £30 million, what help is your Government giving to health boards to address the spiralling numbers that are waiting on waiting lists here in Wales and, above all, the financial predicament that many LHBs face?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, first of all, I don’t accept the premise that the question is based on. If we look, for example, at referral-to-treatment times over 36 weeks, that’s improved by 35 per cent between March 2015 and March 2017. March 2017 was also the highest performance on the percentage of patients waiting over 26 weeks since March 2014. We know that diagnostic waiting times have improved by 58 per cent by March of this year. I don’t accept that somehow the situation is worse in every case in terms of Wales compared to England. He’s right to say that all health services face pressures.He asks a fair question, which is: what preparations have been made for the winter? Every year, we make preparations for the winter. The pressures do come on. We’re not immune to the same pressures, as other countries in the UK, but we know that, over the past few years, the plans that we have made have been robust enough to deal with the pressures that come on during the winter, and I’m confident that we are in that same position again.

Andrew RT Davies AC: You’re quite right, First Minister; you and I could trade statistics, and the gallery upstairs and those watching on TV would just get bamboozled by those statistics, but the figures do show that, in Wales, for example, there’s been a 400 per cent increase in people waiting 12 months or more for a surgical procedure. In the best health board, Cwm Taf Local Health Board, no-one waits 12 months or more. In the worst, or one of the worst, Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board, which is under the direct control of your Government, there’s been a 1,250 per cent increase in people waiting 12 months or more. So, it is the role of Government to make sure that good practice is spread out in the NHS here in Wales. So, why is someone in Betsi waiting so much longer for a procedure than someone in Cwm Taf? We only have seven health boards; surely, that good practice should be spilling out into all the health boards so that people do not see these spiralling waiting times here in Wales.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, what I can say is we recently announced £50 million of performance moneys in order to continue—we are now trading statistics again, but I think we have to—in order to continue this improvement trend for waiting times. The health Secretary and I have been very clear on the need for further improvement in waiting times, and all health boards have committed to further improvements by the end of March 2018. There are plans in place for all organisations and monitoring arrangements to be in place to ensure the improvement is delivered, building on the progress over the last two years. Yes, there are inconsistencies. Yes, we want to make sure those inconsistencies are dealt with, which is why we’ve allocated this money and why, of course, health boards have made the commitment that they have.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I agree with you, First Minister; the NHS is about acronyms and, obviously, statistics. But, very often, we miss the actual patients who are waiting on the clinicians who are under pressure, and they just want a straight answer. When you do have so many health boards in Wales, as I said, four of them—. And it’s worth repeating the deficits or the projected deficits that they do have, such as Hywel Dda Local Health Board, £49 million, Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board, £35 million, Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board, £31 million. A lot of people will say, ‘How can you manage those deficits whilst controlling and driving down the waiting times?’ Are you confident that, by the time we get to March, waiting times will be declining and the deficits will be in hand and wiped out, as the health Secretary has indicated? Or will you have to bail out the health boards that have these projected deficits?

Carwyn Jones AC: No, we expect health boards to be able to manage with the resources that they have. Clearly, we could not be in a position where health boards knew that whatever they spent, they would be bailed out. That is an incentive for them not to be as rigorous in their financial management and their care for patients as they otherwise should be. So, they have been told that, by March of next year, we expect to see these improvements. If not, of course, they will need to explain why that is and explain why they have failed to meet the promises that they have given both to the Government and to the people of Wales.

The leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Just before we rose for the summer recess, the Government pulled the rug out from underneath the Circuit of Wales project, which would have brought hundreds of millions of pounds of much-needed private investment into the northern Valleys. As a fig leaf, the First Minister and his Government then proposed that they should invest £100 million of public money in a speculative scheme to create a new industrial park in the Ebbw Vale area. Given that the Ebbw Vale enterprise zone has been in operation now for quite a number of years, and tens of millions of pounds have already been invested in jobs in that area, but only 320 new jobs have been created and 70 safeguarded, why does the First Minister think that his speculative proposal is going to be any more successful?

Carwyn Jones AC: I talk to businesses, and one of the issues particularly that businesses have flagged up with us is the lack of suitable premises where they can go in order to set up manufacturing. One of the issues that we’re looking at is being able to provide them with the premises that they need, of the right size. We don’t do that in terms of building empty buildings for no reason. We’ve done that by consulting with businesses, and asking businesses what they want. That’s actually a very sound way of investing for the future rather than, as he calls it, being speculative. It’s far from speculative. This is based on the feedback that we’re getting from business.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, there are of course no firm offers to take space in the area that the First Minister is talking about. My colleagues and I had the advantage on Friday of visiting St Athan and seeing what’s happening at the Aston Martin construction that’s going on there, which is a Welsh Government success story—I fully acknowledge that and congratulate the First Minister. But, of course, St Athan is a very different kettle of fish from Ebbw Vale in terms of its potential attractiveness to investors, without improving the infrastructure still further in the northern Valleys. The whole point of the Circuit of Wales project and the job spin-offs that would come from it is not so much the racetrack itself, but the way in which the circuit would have put it on the map, in a sense, and would have attracted further automotive businesses around it. Given that, as a result of the collapse of that offer, the Welsh Government is trying now to fill a vacuum, I really can’t see why he has turned down the offer of hundreds of millions of pounds of private investment where the Government’s only liability was highly contingent on the total failure of the project, and the assets that would have been created fetching nothing.

Carwyn Jones AC: No, we’ve explored this before. I’ve explained to him the issue of what counts as on the books and off the books. What he describes is speculative. Every business venture is speculative to some extent. But in some ways, in the questions he asks, he answered his first question, and that is: one of the reasons why St Athan proved attractive to Aston Martin is because there was a building there that fitted their spec. It was what they wanted. The site was right. Many businesses have said to us in conversations I’ve had, ‘Look, one of the issues we face in Wales is we want to go somewhere like Ebbw Vale, but where do we go? The buildings aren’t there. The premises we need aren’t there.’ That’s why part of the investment we’re putting into Ebbw Vale, into the Heads of the Valleys, is to make sure that the right premises are there so businesses can move in, rather than an obstacle being in place that won’t be removed without Government investment. Yes, is that speculative? Well, in the sense that all business is speculative, but it’s based, to my mind, on much sounder ground than the circuit was.

Neil Hamilton AC: But of course the Circuit of Wales was more than just speculative because there was a fully worked out business case, which I understand was not undermined by the Welsh Government. The objection of the Welsh Government’s support for the project was based upon internal accounting conventions, in its opinion, in any event, set by Her Majesty’s Treasury. So, the Circuit of Wales project itself will rise or fall upon its own economic merits. No doubt the First Minister will have seen on WalesOnline today that the promoters of the project have now come up with another proposal that perhaps they could access funding for under the city deal. So, I’m anxious not to engage in any kind of inter-party fisticuffs today that might discourage the Welsh Government from helping the project, even at this late stage, to become viable. I wonder if the First Minister can, in the most general terms, give his support to making further efforts to look at whether the Circuit of Wales could actually be made into a reality.

Carwyn Jones AC: We’ve never rejected the circuit as an idea. It was simply the financial arrangements surrounding it. If the circuit is able to come up with a different proposal, then, of course, that’s something that we would look at. We don’t have an objection in principle, but we have to make sure that any project takes into account the interests of Welsh taxpayers and is able to demonstrate very strongly that the jobs that are promised are in fact deliverable. If there is something else that comes forward, then of course we’d look at that to see whether the circumstances have changed.

Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, can you imagine a country where megaprisons are placed in the middle of so-called enterprise zones? Or can you imagine a country that ends up being described as a Botany Bay of the twenty-first century and as a penal colony? Well, those were the words of Frances Crook, the respected chief executive of the Howard League. First Minister, Wales must be the only country in the world where prisons are highlighted as tools for economic development, rather than as part of a country’s criminal justice system. Do you expect other prisons to close if the Port Talbot prison goes ahead? And can you confirm whether there will be a net jobs gain or do you think there’ll be a loss?

Carwyn Jones AC: These are matters for the Ministry of Justice to answer. We’re not responsible for prison policy. But she asked a question about prisons. I have a prison in my constituency. It was very controversial when it was built. I was the ward councillor when it was built at the time. Now, no-one takes any notice of it. It employs many people, there’s a housing estate being built not far from the walls of the prison. But, nevertheless, it is important that people’s concerns are addressed, because I remember at the time people’s concerns. It is important that the MOJ carries out a full consultation with people in the area. That is their responsibility. Our responsibility lies with the issue of the land. Bluntly, we’ll look to get the best deal possible for the Welsh taxpayer for the land, regardless, of course, of how that land is disposed of. We are, on the issue of the prison, not actively promoting a prison. We want to get the best financial outcome for the Welsh taxpayer.

Leanne Wood AC: I’m glad you raised the question of the land, First Minister, because there’s a vision for a Swansea metro that has the potential to transform the city and its hinterland, and it’s the most attractive vision for our second city that we’ve seen in years. But the land earmarked for the Baglan prison appears to sit on the blueprint. Plaid Cymru’s view of that prison is well known, and there are Members of your own party who are in agreement with us that this is not the right site. Is it not the case that you will be selling off land that would otherwise be part of a future Swansea metro? Will you acknowledge that you are in a position to stop this project by refusing to sell this land? And if you do accept that, will you now refuse to sell that land?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, we would not do anything that would jeopardise the future of the Swansea metro, that’s true, but there are broader issues here that do have to be addressed. The prisons are crumbling, there’s no question about that. As somebody who was familiar with the system at one time with my job, our prisons are long overdue being replaced—we know that some of them are Victorian. We export prisoners. Women prisoners cannot serve their sentences in Wales. There’s no category A prison in Wales. We still have too many prisoners who are unable to serve their time close to their communities, and that’s important from their perspective in terms of their rehabilitation. What I don’t know is whether she takes the view that there shouldn’t be a prison at all, or whether it should move on to another site. If it is the case that she would want it moved to another site, we’d be open to suggestions as to where that should be.

Leanne Wood AC: You could argue there should be multiple sites, First Minister. All of the problems that you have just outlined will not be solved by building this megaprison so close to another new prison. Your economic policy is leading us to a situation where our national interests are not being upheld. Devolution and self-government are supposed to allow us to look after our own needs, to be an equal partner with our neighbours and not a servant. These superprisons are designed for the criminal justice needs not of our country, but of the country next door. And it’s not me saying that, it’s coming from the top English and UK voices on prison reform. Why are you setting up a commission on justice if not to deal with questions like this? And it’s not just about prisons, First Minister, it’s this mantra of jobs at any cost that has led you to accepting the disposal of mud from a nuclear site in Welsh waters. What on earth is Wales doing taking waste from another country that could be radioactive? I don’t know why you granted that licence in the first place. I’d like to know whether you have any regrets about granting that licence. Will you agree to revoke it if it transpires that there is even the smallest risk to people’s health?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, she’s telling half the story. First of all, she knows full well that licensing is not done by Ministers; it’s done by an outside body—that’s the whole point—so that the politics is taken out of it. What I’ve seen so far is one person has said there may be an issue here. Well, of course, that issue needs to be addressed, but we’ve got be careful here because the waste from Wylfa goes to England, and if it wasn’t for Sellafield’s reprocessing plant it would shut immediately. She has views on nuclear power that perhaps I wouldn’t share, but it’s too crude simply to say, ‘Well, this is nuclear waste being exported from England to Wales.’ We export a lot more out towards Sellafield. So, I don’t accept that this is an import-export issue. Where we have nuclear power, it’s important that there are adequate disposal facilities, but simply to present it in terms of an England-Wales battle ignores the fact we have our own nuclear power station, and we don’t have our own disposal facilities; we rely on England to deal with the waste that comes from Wylfa.

&lt;p&gt;The Health Service in North Wales&lt;/p&gt;

Siân Gwenllian AC: 3. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's efforts to recruit and train new staff for the health service in north Wales? (OAQ51084)[W]

Carwyn Jones AC: The Welsh Government supports Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board to recruit and train staff in a number of ways, including record investment in nursing and allied health professional training places. Of course, the Member will know of the statement made before the summer about the way in which we wish to ensure that more training takes place in north Wales in order to ensure that there is more opportunity for people to come to train in north Wales as part of the Welsh training network.

Siân Gwenllian AC: According to figures published by the Welsh NHS Confederation in May this year, 141 medical posts in Betsi Cadwaladr health board were vacant, and this represents 37 per cent of all the medical positions that are vacant in the health service in Wales. We had a debate here last week as we discussed the Health and Social Care Committee report on medical recruitment. But despite all of the evidence supplied by the committee, the profession and the wider sector about the need to move towards establishing a medical school in north Wales, the Government is still refusing to do so on the basis of ambiguous statements on the cost and complexity of the process. The claim that the establishment of a medical school in north Wales is too costly is utter nonsense, given the millions that Betsi Cadwaladr spends on locums—almost £80 million over the past three years. First Minister, how many more patients in north Wales are you willing to see on waiting lists before you listen to the experts and pay attention to the evidence?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I haven’t seen any evidence from experts saying that we have to have an independent medical school in the north. I have to tell you that—[Interruption.]

Carry on, First Minister.

Carwyn Jones AC: Secondly, what we need to ensure is that the north links with the south to create a training system that is pan-Wales. But what does count, of course, is that those who require training see that the standard is high enough. We want to ensure that the standard is uniform across Wales, and that’s exactly what we’re going to do. We know, with regard to the training of GPs, for example, in the north-east and in the north west, that every place has been filled as regards the training places available. That is not true of the mid part of north Wales, but we want to ensure that more people come for training in north Wales, and we want to ensure that we move towards developing a system of medical education in north Wales over the ensuing years in order to ensure that the north is considered as a possible and potential training area. That is the aim of the Government. I don’t think that we disagree very much on that aim.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I’m really pleased that Sian Gwenllian has actually raised this again, and I would urge all north Wales AMs to make similar calls and to hold you to account, First Minister. This has been going on for years. Sian is quite right to mention there are 141 long-term vacancies. We have hospital wards in north Wales that have closed down for several months. We’ve met with the British Medical Association, we’ve met with other medical professionals, and there is a distinct need—it’s been proven—for a training centre somewhere in north Wales. The fact is, and the statistics prove this, that those who train in Cardiff move over into England. We cannot recruit. The Betsi board cannot recruit. Now, this is a board that’s in special measures. It’s got Welsh Government intervention, and yet it is failing at every level in terms of staff recruitment, in terms of keeping wards open. When are you, and when is your Cabinet Secretary, who consistently sits here during health questions shaking his head—? Well, I’m sorry, but you and the Cabinet Secretary—. We’re here to scrutinise you, and you are failing the patients of north Wales, you’re failing the health board, and you’re failing the actual staff who work there. We are in crisis in north Wales. We need a training centre in Bangor. The costs, as Sian has pointed out quite well, are there to be—. We cannot keep taking locum staff—

Can you bring this to a question?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes, okay, thank you. We want a long-term solution. You’re the one who has the levers to do this; please, can we have a training school in Bangor?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I agree with her when she says she wants more training opportunities in the north. There’s no distance between us on that; it’s how it’s delivered. She’s asking, ‘Can it be an independent medical school?’ Well, we know that that’s not what is recommended. We know it would be difficult because big medical schools are in big cities with big hospitals, which have a far greater spread of specialities. What can be done, however, is to make sure that Bangor is tied in—the whole of the north is tied in—more completely with Cardiff and Swansea, and that we move to put in place a system of development over the next few years in order to provide better opportunities in the north. That’s the way to do it. It’s important to be able to link Bangor with the bigger hospitals to provide the training opportunities in the most comprehensive way. I think everybody in the medical profession understands that. I get the point that we need to provide more training opportunities in the north. I don’t dispute what the Member for Arfon has said. It’s a question now of not, ‘Do we do it?’ but ‘What is the most effective way of doing it?’, and we believe we’ve outlined that.

&lt;p&gt;Workforce Planning&lt;/p&gt;

Simon Thomas AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on workforce planning in Hywel Dda University Local Health Board? (OAQ51081)[W]

Carwyn Jones AC: We expect Hywel Dda to develop its workforce plans so that they match the local population needs, both now and in the future.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, First Minister. May I first of all put on record my thanks to the staff of Bronglais hospital who cared for my son over the past fortnight in the accident and emergency department? I’m very grateful and I very much appreciate the work that the staff do at the Hywel Dda health board. But, we must acknowledge—and the Minister has acknowledged to me in answering a question over the summer—that there are problems in some areas, and paediatrics particularly. Doctor Vas Falcao, who just retired last year from Withybush hospital, has said that the paediatric service in the west is about to fail because of recruitment problems. We have six vacant posts for paediatric consultants at the moment at Withybush hospital, and last year’s recruitment campaign by Bronglais failed to recruit a single new consultant. So, we must ask whether you will take definite, specific steps to ensure better recruitment for staff in west Wales.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, may I say in the first place that I hope that your family situation has improved? I’m sorry to hear about what happened there. It’s true to say that there are still challenges in the west. I know that the situation in Withybush is a temporary position and not a permanent one—may I say that—and I know that the health board is working very hard to recruit the people they need. But what will not happen is that we will not revert to the old model, because the royal college is not of that view. Maybe one individual might think so, but that is not the view of the royal college. But, of course, I know that the health board is working very hard through the recruitment campaign that we have to ensure that the temporary situation in Withybush changes and reverts to what it was previously, that is, 12 hours per day.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, according to the Hywel Dda health board, they have faced more recruitment problems at Withybush hospital over the past few years because of the location of the hospital. That’s why the board has said that they’ve had to change the opening hours for paediatric services, for example. The constituents that I represent want to see full-time paediatric services reintroduced in the hospital. So, can you confirm that your Government agrees with that aim, and also can you tell us one thing that your Government has done differently as compared to the past six months in order to deal with these recruitment problems?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, of course, it is a matter for the health board, but they have a duty to recruit and they are still attempting to do so. Is he asking whether things should revert to what they used to be? Well, no, because that is not what the report states; I don’t think there would be an improvement in services at all. It’s true to say that there have been problems regarding recruitment in hospitals over the years, going back decades now. The further west you go, the fewer training hospitals you have. That is why it is vital to ensure that when specialists go to hospitals in west Wales they feel part of a larger network so that they have that professional support. That’s what’s happening, of course, through the links that they have in Morriston in the west, and in the north with some of Liverpool’s hospitals. But may I tell him once again that the current situation in Withybush hospital is temporary, not permanent?

Joyce Watson AC: First Minister, I took the opportunity during the summer recess to meet with staff and also the chief executive of Hywel Dda health board. I particularly focused on the issue of the paediatric ambulatory care unit in Withybush and all the headline stories that we have heard. What I was told quite clearly is that they recognise that they have recruitment problems and that those recruitment problems are not unique just to them, nor to Wales, nor to the rest of the UK. What they did tell me was that they’re looking at those challenges in a positive way, so that they can deliver an alternative model to the one that is currently provided on a temporary basis. So, could I ask, First Minister, what discussions the Welsh Government has had, and will have in the future, with the health board about what those strategies might be able to deliver and how effective we could expect them to be?

Carwyn Jones AC: I understand that on 21 September, a few days ago, a new consultant paediatrician was recruited to Withybush. Also, there have been the appointments of two locums and two substantive consultant posts across their paediatric services. The health board inform us that they’re also in discussions with two further candidates for a community paediatric and a consultant paediatric post. That is encouraging and, of course, in doing that, we want to make sure that there is more to come.

&lt;p&gt;Supporting Apprenticeships&lt;/p&gt;

Mark Isherwood AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government supporting apprenticeships in Wales? (OAQ51057)

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I’m glad that the Member has asked the question, because we’re transforming the skills journey through the creation of apprenticeship pathways to deliver on our commitment of 100,000 apprenticeship places for those of all ages, in line with the Welsh Government’s priorities and in line with the promises that we made last year.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you for that. When, earlier this year, I raised in the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee concern expressed by the four Welsh police forces that they couldn’t access the apprenticeship levy and the £2 million that they were paying into it, the skills Minister replied that the Welsh Government would instead strike up a grant or contract arrangements, in dialogue with the College of Policing, and that they had meetings in the diary with the police and crime commissioners. I was then told subsequently, in March, that those meetings had, at that stage, been cancelled and not rescheduled. How do you respond to the concern expressed in August by the four police and crime commissioners and chief constables in Wales that this could result in 45 fewer officers in north Wales and potential recruits choosing to sign up to work for English forces instead, and calling for urgent action from the Welsh Government because the situation is putting them at a distinct disadvantage, and finally pointing out that although in England the money that forces pay into the levy goes to the English police college, in Wales it goes to the Welsh Government and, therefore, this lies in your hands?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, we could’ve done this if policing was devolved, but his party has sat there consistently in this Chamber and demanded that policing should not be devolved. We are not going to fund services that should be funded by a non-devolved body. This is a tax that was imposed by his party: a tax on business. We have received a share of that and we will use that money to pay for apprenticeships, but we cannot, in good faith, pay towards apprenticeship schemes that sit in non-devolved areas. That, surely, is the responsibility of the UK Government, as they keep on telling us.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I’m sure the First Minister would agree with me that some of the most inspiring visits that we have as Assembly Members in our own constituencies are to employers, big and small, who take on apprenticeships on a regular basis, whether those are what we might call entry-level apprenticeships, higher apprenticeships or even degree apprenticeships as well—they’re graduate apprenticeships. Companies like Sony, who are actually now setting the standard in terms of apprenticeship development within the workforce. Companies in your own constituency, First Minister, such as Ford in Bridgend, who, over many, many years, have developed people in electromechanical engineering apprenticeships, in business management apprenticeships, and so much more. There is a great deal to be done, but much that is being achieved, but would he agree with me that one of the most significant ways that we can increase the pipeline of apprenticeships is by investing in heavy, big infrastructure? And whilst we may have missed the opportunity with the investment of electrification all the way down to Swansea, there is a way to make up some of the ground, and that is for the UK Government to give the go-ahead on the tidal lagoon in Swansea, because that will develop civil engineering apprenticeships, project management apprenticeships, business management apprenticeships, and many, many more. That, on its own, would have a significant effect on apprenticeships right across the region.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I very much agree with what the Member has said. Some may have noticed that I gave a speech on the weekend when I called on the UK Government to deliver the tidal lagoon. The response from the UK Government was that I should focus on public services in Wales and not mention the lagoon. Now, that causes me a great deal of trepidation because normally the response is, ‘We are still considering it.’ That suggests to me that they’re going to axe the lagoon, and that is something that is a great concern to me and, I’m sure, Members of this Chamber, indeed, outside of my own party. This is a project that will deliver clean, green energy, not just for Wales but into the National Grid. It would deliver 1,000 jobs in manufacturing and maintenance, particularly in the area of Port Talbot, and we’ve had prevarication after prevarication after prevarication. Even an independent review, which I suspect was set up to say, ‘Don’t go ahead with it’ and then came up with the suggestion that we should go ahead with it, has reported that this project should happen. A billion pounds was put on the table for Northern Ireland—£1 billion for Northern Ireland; a coach and horses driven through the Barnett formula. We’ve heard that that’s sacrosanct; that was ignored, as far as Northern Ireland was concerned. Where is the tidal lagoon? The people of Wales deserve an answer, they deserve those jobs and they deserve the consideration of the UK Government.

&lt;p&gt;The Future of Trauma Services in South Wales&lt;/p&gt;

Dai Lloyd AC: 6. Will the First Minister make a statement on the future of trauma services in south Wales? (OAQ51085)

Carwyn Jones AC: I missed the question; there was a bit of yapping on my left, but I have the question—.

It’s on the order paper.

Carwyn Jones AC: May I apologise? Well, in the health board meetings in September, they will consider the recommendations regarding the establishment of a major trauma network for south Wales, west Wales and south Powys. This includes formally receiving the independent expert panel’s report on the operation of a major trauma network and a major trauma centre.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much for that response, First Minister. Naturally, the recommendation to establish the main trauma centre in the University of Wales Hospital, Cardiff, is another example of a service that is being centralised in Cardiff at the expense of Morriston Hospital in Swansea, and this follows the loss of other services such as neurosurgery some years ago—neurosurgery for children and adults has disappeared from Swansea to Cardiff. Indeed, Morriston lost the neurosurgery unit for children although the only paediatric neurosurgeon throughout the whole of Wales was based in Morriston, but that wasn’t enough to retain the unit in Morriston, and it was moved to Cardiff. Naturally, therefore, there is concern in the south west of Wales that specialist services are being lost and that Morriston Hospital doesn’t appear to be prominent enough in Welsh Government plans. Losing or weakening services undermines the status of the hospital as a regional centre of expertise, and also the city deal objectives in Swansea, which is looking to develop research and health posts of high quality. Also, the burns unit at Morriston—the only one in Wales, which also serves the south-west of England—the presence of that burns unit is crucially important for any major trauma centre. So, given all of that, will you, as a Government, commit to introducing a detailed vision for the Morriston site that builds on its clear strengths?

Carwyn Jones AC: Morriston is crucial as regards health services as a major hospital that serves such a large population. But, he is saying that the Welsh Government has done this. This isn’t the view of Welsh Government. When you have a situation where people are strongly in favour of one site or another, the only thing you can do is establish an expert panel, as happened. That panel has presented its recommendation to the public. We know what they are and it’s up to the health boards now to collaborate to ensure that we do secure a centre. We know that it’s impossible to get two centres—we know that—but it’s crucially important now that the recommendations are considered and that a decision is made. But, as regards Welsh Government, we have no view, because the panel has submitted the recommendations and it’s now in the hands of the health board. If there is no agreement between the health boards, then, of course, it will come to Welsh Ministers and then every fact would have to be considered as regards the siting.

Suzy Davies AC: Well, it’s three years since the expert panel was set up to consider the location of the new unit, and, in that time, neither Cardiff nor Bristol have got any closer to Aberystwyth or Haverfordwest, let alone places in my region. The head of the independent panel, as we heard, is now speaking of moving the burns unit from Morriston to Cardiff and that, for me, raises questions about quite how these recommendations are being made in the first place. Morriston is just about to receive £2 million towards investment in response to cardiac emergency times, for which we are grateful, but it’s obviously a material consideration in that decision, the length of time it takes ambulances to travel. I accept that care in transit is a material issue, but, if it’s being taken into consideration for deciding where emergency cardiac services are to be improved, why isn’t it such a material consideration in where trauma services are to be improved? I appreciate it’s not your opinion, but it will form the Cabinet Secretary’s decision. I’m hoping to hear that transit time will be something that is taken more seriously than it currently seems to be.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, it might. It depends, of course, if the health boards agree or not. If they don’t, then of course it will come to the Cabinet Secretary for decision. Wherever you place the trauma centre, there will be people who are more than an hour away from it. It’s inevitable; the geography dictates that. Of course, we have air ambulances that are able to assist in terms of bringing people to hospitals more quickly. But the independent panel has made its recommendations; they’re out in the open now. It’s now for the health boards to decide amongst themselves what the most effective way should be of establishing a major trauma centre—not just a centre, but a trauma network as well. It can’t all be about one centre, important though that centre is, wherever it goes; it has to be about establishing a proper, responsive network to trauma that can feed into that trauma centre in the most appropriate time.

Finally, David Rees.

David Rees AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, I can join with the concerns of my colleagues regarding the major trauma centre being located in Cardiff and the possible losses of services at Morriston. We know that, when services move, others tend to follow them. Now, in this case, there is no service move because it’s a new service, but what I want is guarantees that services at Morriston stay in Morriston, because they’ve built up a reputation, they’ve built up a service delivery for local people, and I don’t want to see that damaged in any way whatsoever. It’s important that Morriston stays, not just a leader of that network, but that the services it has stay.

Carwyn Jones AC: Morriston is bound to be an important district general hospital. It provides many specialised services for the hospitals further west in order for those hospitals to be able to provide the services for their people. I know that—. I’ve been told by consultants who work in Morriston that they often work in the hospitals further west as well. So, there’s no question of Morriston losing its status as one of our most important DGHs. Wherever the trauma centre goes, and that is something for the health boards to decide, it’s important, as I said, that that network is in place. At the end of the day, this is about providing more specialised and better care for people who are deeply in need of that care. We don’t have a trauma centre; we need one. It is based in the south, that’s true, but we need to have one trauma centre wherever that goes. But, certainly, as far as Morriston is concerned, it remains a big hospital serving an important city and will continue to provide specialised services, not just for Swansea, but for further west as well.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. 2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on Jane Hutt, the leader of the house. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I have no changes to make to today’s agenda. Business for the next three weeks is as set out on the business statement and announcement found among the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Suzy Davies AC: As we are about to enter discussions on the Minister’s Welsh language White Paper, there are still some outstanding matters regarding standards that need completing, and I’m wondering whether we could have an early statement, please, on the timetable for publication of the Welsh language standards in health services.

Jane Hutt AC: We do, of course, have a debate on the business statement coming up next week, and I’m sure that will include reference to the standards.

Mike Hedges AC: I want to ask for two Government statements. Firstly, as we know, not just in Cambridge and around major American universities, but in European cities such as Aarhus in Denmark and Mannheim in Germany, the university sector acts as an economic driver. Can I ask that the Welsh Government makes a statement on how it sees the university sector in Wales helping create wealth in Wales, either via science parks or promoting entrepreneurship?The second statement I want to request—and it follows on from a question Dawn Bowden raised last week—is on the action being taken to monitor the progress made in cases of defective wall cavity insulation in Wales. I have had several complaints, as a constituency Member, about this. I know that other Members have, and I’m sure most Members who I’ve talked to—. Or I know most Members I’ve talked to have, and I can see no reason why almost all Members here will not have had those problems, and it does have a serious effect on those who are being affected by it. So, can I ask for a Government statement on the size of the problem and what they see as a way out of it? And I also know the problems that exist when the Government made the decision, instead of having one insurance company, they put it out to competition—a word that always makes me shiver—and the fact that it makes life very difficult, then, to find out who is responsible.

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Mike Hedges for those two questions. In terms of your first question, of course Wales’s universities are already, and indeed benefit from best practice such as the examples you give—Aarhus in Denmark and Mannheim in Germany. Of course, one of the ways that it does this is by fully engaging, as West Wales and the Valleys, with EU programmes like Manumix, and that encourages the sharing of best practice in the advanced manufacturing sector. But I would follow on from a question to, and a response by, the First Minister earlier on this afternoon, that, if the proposed tidal lagoon at Swansea is approved, which I know, across this Chamber, we all want and expect, it would present a golden opportunity for Swansea to seize national leadership on tidal lagoon research, technology, commercialisation, and supply chains, as Aarhus in Denmark has done with wind energy.On your second question, it is important to report that the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs has agreed changes to the competent person scheme requirements to help ensure insulation is not installed to unsuitable properties from 1 October. For existing installations, officials will be meeting with the main guarantee provider, the Cavity Insulation Guarantee Agency, to discuss progress in resolving outstanding claims.

Steffan Lewis AC: Can we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for the Economy and Transport on the obligations on local authorities to maintain safe highways and install traffic calming? Residents in the Pant Ddu Road area of Crumlin are working hard, and have been for many years, to secure traffic calming in their area. There’s been a doubling in the volume of traffic and the average speeds are now exceeding thresholds that I understand are needed for action in terms of the installation of traffic-calming measures. But it has been insinuated by the local authority that personal injury incidents or worse have to occur before criteria are met. So, can we have clarification on what the national guidance is for local authorities in terms of determining how an area can reach a criteria for traffic-calming measures before someone is hurt or worse?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I’m sure many Members will agree with Steffan Lewis about these pressures that are being put on our local communities—particularly, of course, you refer to Crumlin in your area. The Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure, would want to clarify the lines of responsibility in terms of local authorities, also, the criteria in terms of our road safety grant schemes, which, of course, local authorities can apply for, and we allocate as a Welsh Government. So, I’m sure that the Cabinet Secretary would be happy to clarify and share that with all Members.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Further to my cross-party statement, I wish to request a statement to this place on the status of music support services across Wales, the availability to Wales’s school pupils of affordable access to instrumental tuition and orchestral access, and the proposed benefit to Wales of a new national music performance strategy for Wales.

Jane Hutt AC: I think we’re very well aware of Rhianon Passmore’s support and advocacy for this, in terms of access and opportunities for music education in our schools, and I’m sure that the Cabinet Secretary will be updating in due course.

Simon Thomas AC: Could I ask for two statements from the Government? First of all, I’m sure, like me, business manager, you were really excited to hear John McDonnell promise to bring back private finance initiative in house, bringing it back home. So, could we have a Government statement about bringing home Welsh PFI, the cost to the Welsh taxpayer of doing that, and the policy of Welsh Government to bring back PFI payments in house? Because you don’t need to wait to elect a UK Labour Government; you can do it now, here in Cardiff Bay, and you can do it tomorrow. The people, for example in Ceredigion, where we have the first PFI school in Wales built for Penweddig—. It’s a very good school, but it’s very expensive when it comes to certain maintenance aspects of the contract. I’m sure Ceredigion County Council would love to know how you’re going to buy that back and give them the money to improve the education service even better than it is currently in Ceredigion. So, please, a statement on your policy on PFI and when we can expect the Labour Party policy announced over the weekend to be enacted here in Wales.The second statement I’d like to request from perhaps the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs is—. We heard the interchange between Leanne Wood, the leader of Plaid Cymru, and the First Minister on the extraction of Hinkley C construction mud and the placing of that mud in the Cardiff flats, as I understand it. There’s some controversy as to whether that is radioactive, whether it contains any substances we should be concerned about. Quite simply, a statement from the Government setting out the simple factual way that this application was gone through, who made the decision making, when it was made, and an assurance given that the conclusion of that statement was that no radioactive material is being deposited in Welsh waters—I think that would set everyone’s minds at rest.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Simon Thomas.Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiynau.On your first question, I think Simon Thomas is very well aware of the Welsh Labour Government plans—taking the lead, I would say, as far as this policy issue is concerned, because successive Welsh Labour Governments have consistently avoided the pitfalls of PFI, as you are aware. As a result of our approach over the last 18 years, I would say, going back to when I was health Minister, liabilities relating to the traditional PFI schemes in Wales are much lower than in other parts of the UK. The annual cost per head of PFI schemes in Wales, around £200, is less than a fifth of the cost per head in the rest of the UK, which is more than £1,000 per person. Obviously, it is about value for money. It’s about the way we are developing. And, of course, we’ve had much scrutiny and engagement with finance committees, current and previous, in developing, for example, the mutual investment model, which the finance Secretary announced on 28 February. That is a new form of public-private partnership, ensuring the delivery of vital public services sooner than capital budgets otherwise permit, in an attempt to reverse UK Government policies of austerity, because, obviously, we need that infrastructure, and we need to be able to finance it.On your second point, yes, the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs will clarify the position to reassure Members in terms of lines of responsibility and the actual situation, not just a report that has come out overnight, which obviously raises matters of great concern to many of us in terms of our constituents and Wales as a whole.

Lynne Neagle AC: Cabinet Secretary, can I ask for a debate in Government time on the impact of welfare reform on devolved services in Wales? It has been some time since we’ve debated this issue here. As you’re aware, universal credit had its full service roll-out in Torfaen in July—the second part of Wales to go live on the full service—and already the signs are deeply worrying. The six-week wait for people to have to receive their money—I know very few people who could manage without six weeks’ income—is already resulting in an increased use of the food bank locally, and there are very alarming signs about the level and quality of information being provided by things like the employment and support allowance helpline, the universal credit helpline and Jobcentre Plus. I think it would be very beneficial if we were able to debate these issues and to exert some influence on the UK Government for the impact this is having on our communities and our devolved services.

Jane Hutt AC: I’m sure that would be welcomed by Members across the Senedd, because you have the experience as the Member for Torfaen in terms of that pilot introduction of universal credit. I note that Welsh Women’s Aid raised this issue this week in terms of concern about what impact this could have, and we know in terms of domestic abuse and the stresses particularly facing women in that situation—. It is something that I feel we need to then consider ways in which we can update Members and debate these issues as well in terms of impacts.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Cabinet Secretary, could I ask the Minister to make a statement on the Rohingya Muslim refugees from old Burma, now Myanmar? The country has sent tens of thousands of people in an appalling and very desperate situation to neighbouring countries, Bangladesh and India. Only yesterday, Nicola Sturgeon had already approved £120,000 of initial aid to the Rohingya Muslims. These refugees—they are Muslims, Hindus and Christians. So, could you kindly make a statement on that issue? And, secondly, is there any possibility to help them out financially, morally, or to give medical aid to those areas, and for clean water to be given to those people from this side of the world? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: I think the situation of Myanmar refugees we’re very clearly aware of across this Chamber. Just in terms of our responsibilities, we have an asylum rights programme and we’re very much engaged with the Syrian refugees support as well. But, of course, not having devolved responsibilities for this we can obviously ask these questions of the UK Government, and be ready to provide support—and of course the close relationship that Wales has with Bangladesh as well in terms of these impacts.

Julie Morgan AC: Following on from Simon Thomas’s question, could we have a statement by the finance Secretary on the different types of innovative funding that are available for capital projects like the one that is going to be used in the new Velindre hospital in my constituency of Cardiff North? Because as Simon Thomas has said, there’s been a lot of publicity over the weekend about UK Labour’s plan to end PFI projects in England when we get into Government. And I would like to use the opportunity to commend her, as a member of previous Welsh Governments, in avoiding the worst excesses of PFI and leaving us in a much better position than the rest of the UK.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Julie Morgan, for enabling me to follow on and enhance the response that I gave to Simon Thomas earlier on. As I said to Simon Thomas, and to Members, particularly on the Finance Committee, of which you were a member in the last session, we spent a lot of time looking at ways, particularly when austerity was kicking in, in which we could, for example, assist local authorities with their borrowing powers. That led to the local government borrowing initiative, which resulted in Welsh Government assisting local authorities on an all-Wales highways environment programme, which actually addressed many of the issues that Steffan Lewis raised earlier on in terms of environmental improvements, but equally supporting, assisting—I have to use my words carefully—registered social landlords in terms of their borrowing powers, but looking at new ways in which we could assist infrastructure developments, not only the twenty-first schools capital programme. Again, this Welsh Labour Government is very proud that we moved into developing a capital programme in partnership with local authorities, in addition to our traditional public capital hospital building programme. But, of course, in terms of Velindre, we then looked at this new mutual investment model. I’ve already touched on that. It has to be a well-designed, well-planned and well-managed partnership that we have to lever in that funding to deliver this pioneering new cancer centre, which you have been very engaged in as the Member for Cardiff North, because we need to provide that new infrastructure for our first-class cancer services. And I know that the finance Secretary will want to update us—and, indeed, the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport—on how that is progressing in terms of delivering the new Velindre hospital centre.

Neil McEvoy AC: I’m looking for a statement on Hinkley Point as well, leader of the Chamber, because last week I asked the Cabinet Secretary for the environment about the dredging of potentially radioactive mud from just outside the Hinkley Point nuclear reactor. She said that she was unable to comment on a specific determination process for granting the licence. Quite frankly, this is unacceptable, and I’m really not sure what to make of what the First Minister said earlier, to be frank. An environmental impact assessment has not been carried out. It’s quite simple. People know about this now and they’re outraged. This plan of yours has been called the twenty-first century toxic Tryweryn. Now, Wales is not a dumping ground. So, what is your Labour Government going to do to reassure people that there is no risk whatsoever from this material? And will you suspend the licence until a core sample has been undertaken, and not just the surface, but under the surface? I’m sure you’ll agree that the Welsh people have a right to know exactly what is about to be dumped on them.

Jane Hutt AC: I did respond to Simon Thomas’s question earlier on, to say that the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs will clarify our position in relation to this question.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Could I first of all begin by echoing Mike Hedges’s call for either a statement, or actually a debate, I think, on the issue of cavity wall insulation? When it’s done well, it can really transform homes for the better. When it’s done poorly—and I suspect probably every Assembly Member in this place will now have instances of poor installation—it is a disaster. I have one constituent from a family of no great means but their only investment is their home. Their home was great, they’d invested a lot of money into it, until they were advised on a Government-backed scheme to actually invest in cavity wall insulation. It has destroyed their house and it has destroyed their family around it and it’s terrible to behold. And it’s not the only one. In a statement by the Cabinet Secretary, which we welcomed, back in June or July, she mentioned that 2,000 claims had been made under the Cavity Insulation Guarantee Agency’s advice, against 300,000—that’s one in 150. If there were one in 150 cars breaking down, or one in 150 cans of beans rife with mould that you picked up from a supermarket, there’d be an outcry. So, I think we do need this. I’d welcome the opportunity to have a full debate to see how widespread this issue really is—and the simple fact that CIGA are not paying the amount of compensation that goes anywhere near the repair of homes. Could I also ask for the opportunity for a statement or a debate on the issue of the growing treatments of Botox and other such treatments that sometimes are being carried out in training courses by unqualified, unregistered, unregulated practitioners? And I say this because a GP in my constituency, out of interest, went to attend one of these, and it was in the kitchen of the individual who was carrying out the training while the dog was running around with no proper medical knowledge whatsoever, and they were offering certificates in how to inject Botox into people’s faces. But, finally, could I ask the simplest one of all? Could I ask the Minister for a statement—and it’s very parochial—on the 17:19 service from Cardiff Central to Maesteg? It is regularly late by over half an hour. Last night, it was late by over 36 minutes leaving. It was the pattern for the rest of the night. It is the service that always falls to bits. Could we have a statement on what the heck is happening there?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Huw Irranca-Davies. It’s important that we have that second question in terms of cavity wall insulation so that I can, again, assure Members that the competent person schemes were introduced into the building regulations in 2010 and included the insertion of insulation into cavity walls. These schemes allow installers to install insulation and to self-certify the work complies with the building regulations. The Cabinet Secretary has recently approved proposals to strengthen the requirements we place on competent person schemes to help ensure that only suitable properties are insulated. The new proposals include greater surveillance by the competent person scheme operators, as I’ve said, of their installers to help identify bad practice and non-compliant work, and these are going to be introduced from 1 October. On your second point, which is very worrying—and you’ve drawn this to our attention today—in terms of what is described as unregulated facial procedures, following Royal Assent in July—this July, 2017—the Welsh Government is now developing the regulations for the new special procedures licensing system, which requires engagement with a wide range of professional practitioner groups to get the right support, guidance and enforcement procedures in place to enable high levels of compliance. We will give local authorities time to bed in these new special procedures in terms of that licensing system before we add any new ones, but over 2,000 practitioners and 900 premises in Wales will need to be reassessed under the requirements of the new licensing system.You have got the Cabinet Secretary responsible for transport sitting next to me here today in terms of the lateness of the 17:19 from Cardiff to Maesteg, and he says he will ensure that this won’t happen. He is going to meet Arriva in the next month, and he’ll raise it with them, because we take customer satisfaction very seriously, particularly in relation to commuter services at that time of day for those travelling west out of Cardiff.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Following on from questions asked earlier about the impact of major events in Wales, we have a Welsh football team to be proud of, we have Welsh football supporters to be proud of, and we have a Welsh football association to be proud of, and its great credit to them all that Wales has been asked to put in a bid to potentially hold Euro 2020 games. Now, could we have a statement on what specifically Welsh Government will do to try to ensure that the Welsh FA is in pole position if the opportunity does arise to host games for Euro 2020?

Jane Hutt AC: I know that the Cabinet Secretary will want to update Members on this very important opportunity in terms of the 2020 games and in terms of building on our experience, which was shared earlier on this afternoon, I think it would be appropriate to move to reassure and update Members accordingly.

David Rees AC: Leader of the house, last night, I actually attended the fantastic performance by National Theatre Wales, which reflected on the crisis and the challenges faced by steelworkers in the time since January 2016 when there was a threat of 750 job losses and then possible closures. Now, I recommend to any Member who’s available to actually see it, and I know that some Members have already seen it. It brings home to us that the challenges they faced and the families faced were difficult at that time and are still difficult. Now, I know the Welsh Government at that point actually created an enterprise zone in Port Talbot to look at the diversification of the economy and to use the advanced manufacturing skills that were there to attract manufacturing businesses into the area. We’ve yet to have an oral statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure to talk about the progress on that enterprise zone as to what is being done to attract those manufacturing businesses into the area so that we can use the skills that are abundant in the area and that are there, all ready for people to come in. It’s situated fantastically for that, but we need to see what’s happening with those jobs.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, David Rees. The National Theatre Wales production—I think it’s called ‘We’re Still Here’—

David Rees AC: ‘We’re Still Here’.

Jane Hutt AC: I’m looking forward to seeing this play myself later in the week. I think you have to go to the station, then you’re taken to the destination for this. National Theatre Wales, I think, we would all recognise is a very, very important institution that we support. But you raised important questions about progress on the enterprise zone, and, of course, in the context of the developing situation, I know that the Cabinet Secretary will want to respond in due course. Also, just to recognise the work that you were doing, David Rees, in terms of bringing these issues to attention, and the briefing later on today for all in terms of progress in terms of Tata Steel.

Bethan Sayed AC: I was wondering if we could have a statement on local government procurement criteria and strategy. I’m asking because I’ve had contact from a furniture company in Port Talbot that bid for contracts with Bridgend County Borough Council. They’ve put furniture in quite a lot of schools across Wales, but they weren’t even allowed to put in a bid to Bridgend County Borough Council, because they said they didn’t have the experience or criteria to be able to do so. Therefore, that contract went to a company in Yorkshire. We took evidence on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee last week from Mark Drakeford about community benefits, about trying to keep contracts in Wales where possible, and I’m not very happy to hear, for a company that I deem to be specialists, of that work going out of Wales. So, could we have a new statement issued on that community procurement? Do local authorities have a structure that they can follow, or does it change by local authority to local authority, which obviously puts those putting a bid in in a very difficult position?

Jane Hutt AC: In response to the Member, I know this will be a matter for Neath Port Talbot council, but, obviously, working in terms of the twenty-first century schools programme with other authorities in many instances. There is, of course, a new code of practice on ethical procurement in Wales, and community benefits are at the forefront and, indeed, ensuring that we have access for local supply chains wherever possible. So I’m sure this is a matter that the Cabinet Secretary would be able to clarify.

Nick Ramsay AC: I’ve been inspired by Huw Irranca-Davies’s request for something to be done about late trains to ask you, leader of the house, if we could have an update from the Cabinet Secretary on where we are with the awarding of the new Wales and borders franchise, currently of course with Arriva. I think it would be really helpful if we specifically had some information on where we are with the commissioning of new rolling stock. I think, in the past when I’ve raised this with the Minister, and possibly with the First Minister as well, it’s been suggested that the commissioning of new rolling stock would be primarily left until after the first phase of awarding of the franchise. Clearly, that leaves it very late, and I know that we would all want, and the public would want, the new franchise to hit the ground running so that when the company, whether it’s the existing company or whether it’s a new company, takes over the running of that franchise, we really can get off to a fresh start, and passengers and the public can have access to first-class trains and first-class rolling stock at the earliest opportunity.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you to Nick Ramsay for that question. The Cabinet Secretary is making a statement later this week, updating on the franchise and, of course, he will answer those questions, particularly in relation to rolling stock.

Thank you, leader of the house.

3. 3. Statement: 'Education in Wales: Our national mission—Action Plan 2017-21'

The next item is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education on ‘Education in Wales: Our national mission—Action Plan 2017-21’. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make her statement. Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I am pleased today to publish the Government’s action plan for education in Wales: our national mission. The global experts on education performance, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, recognised earlier this year that Government and the sector are working closely together with a commitment to improvement ‘visible at all levels of the education system’. This action plan sets out the next stage in our reform journey, including development and delivery of a transformational new curriculum. At its heart is a focus on raising standards for all, reducing the attainment gap, and an education system that is a source of national pride and public confidence. This Government is committed to a Wales where every child can make the most of their potential and is equipped to deal with the changing world. Last week, the First Minister set out the priorities for this Government in our national strategy ‘Prosperity for All’ and the focus on building a Wales that is both ambitious and learning. We are at a crucial point in delivering on those ambitions. The OECD’s advice to us was unambiguous: hold our nerve, stay the course, but do more to communicate, clarify and ensure coherence in our programme, bring a focus to leadership and deliver a much-needed new curriculum in a timely manner. This action plan responds to those recommendations. It also builds on conversations and meetings I and officials have had right across our nation.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Kirsty Williams AC: We are building on strong foundations set out in previous plans and programmes. But we can be even better, setting high expectations of our young people and teachers. We are clear about the way forward. Since the OECD’s report, I have reflected on its recommendations. I have spoken to hundreds within the education workforce and listened to the challenge and advice from the scrutiny committees here at the Assembly. The OECD said,‘To support the realisation of its education objectives and ultimately its vision of the Welsh learner, Wales should continue its curriculum reform…to ensure that its reform journey is comprehensive and effective.’The timeline for delivery of our new curriculum, which is at the core of a transformed education system, is set out clearly within the action plan. Instead of a big-bang introduction overnight one September, it will be rolled out starting with primary schools and year 7s. International evidence is clear on this. We will also provide the right preparation time for schools and teachers—not time to stand still, but time to provide feedback, further engage with the new curriculum and be fully prepared for the new approach.Work on content and the areas of learning and experience continues at pace. The new curriculum and assessment arrangements will be available for schools to feed back, test and refine in Easter 2019. Following that period, all schools will have access to the final curriculum from 2020, allowing them to get fully ready and prepared for statutory roll-out in September 2022. It will then be introduced from nursery to year 7 in 2022, rolling into year 8 for 2023, year 9 in 2024, and so on as the cohort moves through. Together, we will deliver on our new curriculum, taking the time to get it absolutely right, but building in that extra time through roll-out and an extra year does not mean slowing down. It means we will deliver on those connected priorities within the action plan that are essential to maintaining high standards and setting even higher ambitions.First: ensuring a high-quality education profession—supporting teachers to be lifelong professional learners through new standards, a national approach to professional development and reformed initial teacher education.Second: identifying and inspiring leaders to raise standards—tackling a historic lack of emphasis on leadership through establishing a national leadership academy, enhanced leadership development, reducing bureaucracy through business managers, improved communication from all levels, and new standards and a revised headship qualification.Third: inclusive schools dedicated to excellence, equity and well-being—a culture of respect and challenge, ensuring that all are ready to learn through expanding the PDG, enhanced summer learning programmes, dedicated ‘more able’ provision, and innovative ways to identify and measure well-being alongside attainment.And fourth: improved robust assessment, evaluation and accountability within a self-improving system—being consistent and clear about the things we wish to value and measure through a new annual national education report and report card, through formative assessment and a new assessment and evaluation framework that focuses on improvement at all levels. Our national mission sets out clear timelines, policies and actions across each one of these areas.In conclusion, Deputy Presiding Officer, schools are having to prepare our young people for jobs that have not yet been created and challenges that we are yet to encounter. This will require a renewed commitment to improving both the skills and knowledge of our young people as we raise standards in a transformational curriculum. Our national mission is ambitious, innovative and confident as we work to deliver a reformed and successful education system. Taken together, our reforms will meet these challenges and deliver on the high expectations that I’m sure we all share in this Chamber for our children and young people.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for the statement that you’ve presented this afternoon. I think I said on your appointment as Cabinet Secretary I wished you well. You have a very important job. Children go through our education system, or students go through our education system once. They get one chance at it and it is vital they have the best environment possible to learn and thrive in that environment. But the statement today does cause some concern, and if I can start with the statement that the First Minister gave last week, ‘Prosperity for All: the national strategy’, where, in the education section of that strategy, which I presume underpins this, he acknowledges that there is still‘too much variation in the attainment of school leavers, which means without the right skills some risk being left behind and wasting their potential.’I’d be very grateful to understand exactly what you’ve identified as being the fault, as to why there is so much variation within the education system within Wales and why, sadly, so many people do end up being left behind, and how your strategy will change the direction of education so that it’s not just another education strategy that a Welsh Government is putting forward and that, in three, four, five years’ time, we are having the same conversation, because I think it is important to understand the key direction of where the education system here in Wales is going.You start also by identifying the OECD and the PISA targets and it is on the record, obviously, as being not your target: the 500 for reading, writing and the sciences—and arithmetic obviously as well. This now forms part of the policy paper that you’ve launched, saying that it is a Welsh Government target to be hitting the 500 mark when the next OECD figures come through in 2021. So, I’d be grateful as to why you don’t see those figures as being your target, yet the document identifies them quite clearly as being a central pillar of driving standards up here in Wales. I’d also like to understand from the Cabinet Secretary, in particular around the reforms that were brought forward under Qualified for Life, which was the Government’s policy document 2014 to 2020, how, again, this document differs from that document, because if I’m correct, we’re still in 2017, and that document was setting the tone to take us through to 2020? Obviously, one of the key pillars of that document was the Schools Challenge Cymru programme, which was set to drive standards up in many of our schools, and from the assessments that have been made— certainly in its initial two years—they were having very promising results and successes with this scheme, and, obviously, it was terminated last year by your good self. Again, as I said, I, and I’m sure the teaching profession and parents would like to know exactly how much legs your policy document, if you like, has—which you brought forward today. Will they see the full term of the agenda that you’re setting out, or will it be another revision in two or three years’ time? The curriculum that you’ve identified and the changes to the curriculum are welcome, and something from this side of the house that we’ve been calling for, given the increasing body of evidence that clearly shows that there did need to be a pause and almost a reflection on its implementation, and I commend you for doing that. But I would ask you: what assessment have you made of the capacity of schools to deal with, potentially, two curriculums being delivered within the school setting? We constantly have debates, we have discussions, as to the capacity of teachers and schools to develop a coherent learning environment and strategy, and, at the end of this process, they will, at a certain point, be delivering two curriculums within the school environment. Teacher recruitment is a vital area, and we understand the problems there, but in your statement you touched on the historical lack of focus on leadership. Again, I would be really keen to understand what backs up that analysis of the historical lack of focus on leadership, given, obviously, that we’ve had a party within this Chamber who have run education for 17 to 18 years now, and I presume that’s an observation you are making about various policies that have come forward before to address the leadership crisis—which I think is a fair comment to make—when we do know that many deputy headteachers do not step up and take on a headship because they do not feel that they’re supported to do that, and there are very many good deputy heads who would make excellent headteachers, but, without that progression within the education system and without that support, we’re going to continue having that leadership crisis. And one final point, if I may, Deputy Presiding Officer with your permission, on HE in particular: it is vital that from our schools students progress into the HE environment. Some of the numbers that have come out around HE recently clearly show that, sadly, the numbers are not going in the right direction and are actually falling backwards for participation in HE from some of our most deprived communities. The Seren network was established and regional hubs were created in order to assist Wales’s brightest pupils to access higher education. I would be grateful to understand how, with the reforms that you’ve launched today in our education system, we will reinvigorate the ambition to go forward into HE, and ultimately experience the wider world of education, whether that be here in Wales or anywhere else in the United Kingdom.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Andrew, for the comprehensive list of questions. The strategy that was announced by the First Minister is the overarching plan for the Government. This document that is launched today adds the meat on the bones that you were asking for just last week, about how the ambitions that are in ‘Prosperity for All’ will actually be delivered. And I make no bones about it: there is too much variation within our education system. There is too much variation in schools. We see that as something that needs to be tackled. We see within a single school a department that is performing really well and a department that is performing less well. We also see variations between individual schools in the same local education authority; sometimes only a matter of miles apart, the results can be very different, and we have to iron that out. Now, there are a number of ways in which this strategy seeks to raise standards across our entire system. Of course, the most important factor is the quality of teaching. That is the biggest thing that we can do to improve the educational attainment of our children, that is to ensure that the quality of teaching across all of our schools is consistently high. That’s why there is so much emphasis in this document about how we can raise the quality of teaching, whether that be reforming our initial teacher education system, whether that’s a new national approach to continuous professional learning, new teaching standards that are currently being adopted for both classroom teachers and headteachers. Our system cannot be better than the teachers who deliver it, and that’s why this is at the core of our programme. You talked about the issue around schools challenge. You’ll know that that was a time-limited programme, limited to only 40 schools. There are lots of schools across Wales that need help and support to develop them. Some of those schools did very well under Schools Challenge Cymru, but I’m afraid to say, in some cases, despite the additional resource, that did not translate into better results for students and, indeed, one schools challenge school just before the summer holidays was put under special measures by Estyn. So, we need an approach to school improvement, delivered by our regional consortia, for all schools in Wales—right the way across our country, rather than just limited to 40 handpicked institutions. You raise the issue of PISA. There is nothing inconsistent in this document and the statements that I and the First Minister gave in answers to questions on 20 and 21 June earlier this year. What’s absolutely clear is that, for the 2021 PISA assessment that will be administered by a different administration in a new Government, whose results will be published by a different administration, that remains the long-term goal. What I am focused on is making improvement in the tests that will be taken next year, because I haven’t changed my mind: our performance in PISA is not what we would want it to be and we need to see improvement, not in 2021—we need to see improvement before that. Now, Andrew, you do raise a very legitimate point about the issue of roll-out within the secondary sector, and whether having to teach two curricula in the school will be challenging. It’s normal practice for teachers to translate curriculum requirements into schemes of work for each year group in their school; no teacher teaches the same lesson to each and every year group. So, this phased roll-out in secondary schools allows the teaching profession the time to develop their new schemes of work year on year. Now, our teachers and those who represent them understand this, and they are very supportive of this approach. And international best practice would tell you that a phased roll-out gives us the best chance for success. The last time we had a major change to the curriculum, of course, was back in 1988, which was done very much top down and done overnight. And I’m afraid if you speak to people who were involved in the delivery of that reform, they’ll say that it caused significant chaos. But I’m very glad that I will have the opportunity later this week to talk to Lord Baker, and I will reflect on his experience of how he felt that that top-down, overnight big bang actually worked out.Leadership, I think, has been an area where we have not had sufficient focus. The reasons for that, you know, I’m not clear on and I’m not sighted on, but what I am clear on is that, if we are to see the improvements that we need, we have to have a focus on leadership, and that’s why we are introducing our new leadership academy. We’ll be reforming the qualification for our headteachers, with new leadership standards and more support for existing headteachers and those who aspire to headship, and as we see the leadership academy develop and bed in, I’d hope to see that focus on leadership go down the whole school system to focus on leaders of individual subjects or individual year groups—leadership in our regional consortia, leadership in local education authorities. This is a national mission. We’ve all got to challenge ourselves and ask: ‘What are we going to bring to the table to see this national mission realised?’ And there’s a place for all of us in that, including Members here in the Chamber whose scrutiny and challenge in the committee has been a very important part of my deliberations when looking to set up the timetable for the curriculum. With regard to HE, can I just say that HE isn’t the be-all and end-all? It’s the right thing for some people, but this idea that everybody has to do HE and that, if you don’t, then somehow you are a failure—I think we need to move away from that. We have to look at education in the right setting, for the right people at the right time in their lives, and that might mean going on to training when you’re in the world of work 10 years after you’ve left school. It may be a higher level apprenticeship. It may be a degree-related apprenticeship. There are many ways in which you can fulfil your potential. HE is an important part of that, yes, for a certain cohort of our population.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement and welcome, for the most part, the content of the statement and indeed the action plan? I don’t think anyone would disagree with the long-term ambition of the Government here—quite simply, ensuring that all children achieve their potential. I’m sure that’s something everyone would want to see. But what we have in this action plan is a great deal of high-level stuff, and the detail on exactly how some of these aspects will be implemented will become clearer, and that, perhaps, is where the nitty-gritty lies.Now, one of the most significant factors in this statement, I think, is the change of timetable in terms of introducing the curriculum. Many have noted that and, as the Cabinet Secretary knows, I have been raising this consistently with her—back in November of last year, back in March and May in committee and also in the Chamber. And, every time, you’ve told me that you’re confident that the original timetable is appropriate, or was at that time, so I welcome the fact that there has been a change, and I would like to ask: why now, a year after I and many in the sector asked for this, do you feel that now is the right time to do that, and why didn’t you do it sooner during this process?I’d also like to know what you will use as a yardstick for success in terms of some of the reforms that will be introduced, because reference has been made to using PISA targets as one yardstick. When the previous Government actually turned its back on its PISA targets, you described that as a total lack of ambition. But it’s the lower targets that were adopted that appear in this action plan.Ac wrth gwrs, pan roddais bwysau arnoch yn y pwyllgor ynglŷn â thargedau PISA, fe’i gwnaethoch yn gwbl glir nad targed PISA yw eich targed chi. Wel, mae yn y cynllun gweithredu, felly a ydym felly’n dod i'r casgliad nad eich cynllun gweithredu chi ydyw? Rwy'n meddwl bod angen eglurder arnom a yw'r Prif Weinidog wedi eich goruwchreoli ar PISA ynteu a ydych chi wedi newid eich meddwl ac nawr yn fodlon derbyn y targedau a ddisgrifiwyd gennych o’r blaen fel rhai sy'n dangos diffyg uchelgais llwyr.Nawr, mae croeso i’r cyfeiriad at gynllun datblygu gweithlu cyffredinol o hydref 2018 ymlaen, wrth gwrs. Gwnaethoch sôn, yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, am waith i wella ansawdd y gweithlu llanw. Efallai y gallech ymhelaethu ychydig ar yr hyn sydd gennych mewn golwg yn y fan honno, ac a yw hynny'n cynnwys newid y model cyflenwi llanw yng Nghymru; gwn fod llawer wedi codi pryderon â chi bod llawer o ddiffygion yn y ffordd y mae hynny'n gweithredu ar hyn o bryd. Rydych yn dweud y byddwch yn cytuno ar fodel asesu ac arfarnu hirdymor i ysgolion—beth allai hynny, o bosibl, ei olygu ar gyfer categoreiddio ysgolion? A fyddwch yn symud oddi wrth yr hyn y mae rhai pobl yn eu hystyried yn systemau goleuadau traffig dadleuol? Rwy'n meddwl y bu awgrym y gallai hynny ddigwydd a byddai'n dda cael eglurder ynghylch a yw'r rheini yma i aros, ynteu a ydych chi'n meddwl y gellid adolygu’r rheini yn y tymor canolig.Nid oes llawer o gyfeiriad at adnoddau ar gyfer rhai o'r camau arfaethedig hyn yn y cynllun, felly rwy’n meddwl y byddai'n wir dweud y bydd ysgolion yn chwilio am sicrwydd gennych y bydd ganddynt yr offer a'r adnoddau sydd eu hangen i gyflawni a chyflwyno'r newidiadau arfaethedig i’r cwricwlwm ac, wrth gwrs, y newidiadau ehangach sy'n cael eu cynnig.There is also reference in the action plan and in your statement to using the new powers that will come to this place, of course, in terms of teachers’ pay and conditions. Perhaps you could give a suggestion and perhaps expand upon the kinds of changes that you will consider. You’ve already suggested that you will be willing to look at conditions of service as something that may need review. And in introducing the curriculum, of course, we need to ensure that appropriate teaching resources will be available in order to provide that new curriculum. We know the difficulties that there have been in terms of Welsh-medium materials in the past, and I would like to be given an assurance from you today that the new curriculum will not be introduced unless all of the necessary resources are in place in Welsh and in English, where necessary. Finally, may I also welcome the references to youth work within the action plan? It’s important that we see youth work as part of the education offer that we have in Wales. A recognition that providing strong youth services is central in considering the future of the education sector is something that is very encouraging for me, and the recognition, of course, that informal education has a crucial role in supporting formal education too.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Llyr, for that set of questions. Could I say that what we have got in the document, I believe, is a very clear set of actions associated with whom we expect to deliver them, whether that be central Government, whether that be tier 2 of our system, the regional consortia, the LEAs and other partners such as Estyn and the Education Workforce Council and schools themselves? And those are outlined in timelines, associated with each of the four enabling objectives that we have within the document.On the issue around the roll-out of the curriculum, what I have said, each time I’ve been asked about this, is that, yes, I believe that we can meet the original suggested timetable in Graham Donaldson’s work, but I’ve also gone on to say that I will always keep that under review, and if I feel that it is necessary to amend the suggested timetable for roll-out to ensure that our curriculum transformation is successful, then I’d be willing to do that. There was simply a lack of clarity as to how roll-out would happen. The document—. And previously, there was no plan for roll-out. And this is one of the things that schools have asked for: ‘Can we have clarity about actually how this will be rolled out?’ And I’m providing that clarity that we have not had before and I’ve also listened very carefully to the work of the committee and to professionals the length and breadth of Wales about how much time we need to ensure that our profession will be ready to take on these changes. And, again, that is absolutely crucial and it’s right that we signal this change and provide that clarity now, as we launch our new national strategy, and, as I said, to give clarity to the profession who’ve been asking how it will actually happen.You raised the very important issue of supply teaching. It’s important that not just the individual people who find themselves working in the supply sector—. It’s not to diminish their contribution, but, actually, overreliance on supply, we know, has an impact on standards. It’s inevitable. So, this is a source of concern to me. You’ll be aware that the previous Minister set up a task and finish group to report on how we could take this forward and didn’t really come up with any overall solution of how to address this agenda, but there were important things that it suggested and, for instance, that we’ve taken forward. So, supply teachers’ access to Hwb: the very professionals who probably need access to that resource more than any other professionals were denied from getting that because we were not giving them a log-on and a password to be able to get onto that system. That has now been addressed.But looking to the longer term and different ways in which we could organise the supply sector, I, like you, am very aware that there’s been much interest shown in the Northern Ireland model. Now, there are pros and cons to the Northern Ireland model, but I have officials in Northern Ireland this very week—this very week—looking to see whether the Northern Ireland model is one that could be easily transferred to Wales, but we have to recognise that some of this can’t be done until the powers of teachers’ pay and conditions are devolved to us. So, there is some constraint around that, but we are actively looking at different models to be able to address some of the longer term structural problems around how supply teaching is organised at present.The Member may be interested in some of the local authorities that are looking to work together to have a supply teacher hub model, where a supply teacher will be made available to a cluster of schools and will be working for that particular cluster of schools. There have been a number of local authorities that have come forward and have shown active interest in being part of that pilot. So, there’s lots going on in the issue of supply teaching.With regard to terms and conditions, it’s really important to reassure people, because some unions have been more enthusiastic than others about the devolution of pay and conditions, to reiterate the promise that no teacher will be worse off as a result of this system, and we do want it to align ourselves with our ambitions within this document, which is all about raising standards and closing that attainment gap.Resourcing for all of this, of course, sits alongside the usual budgetary processes that we have in Government, at a time when UK austerity continues to be really challenging, and we will do our very best to ensure that our schools have the resources that they need, recognising, of course, that school funding comes in two tranches—yes, via the education department for things like the pupil development grant, but also via local government, via the revenue support grant—and we have to be mindful of that approach to how money actually gets into our schools.As you know, I have a particular passion for ensuring that we have equity in our system. It’s in this document: an equity for all our students, and that includes those students that pursue their education through the medium of Welsh. It is not fair that students do not have timely access to Welsh-medium resources. The Member will be aware that I held a summit on this earlier in the year—I’m sorry that you were not able to attend that summit—and I continue to have discussions with the Welsh Books Council, with the university press, publishers and the WJEC about how we can improve on this situation. It will be crucial in developing the new curriculum, because if big publishing houses are not interested in working with us now, they’re certainly not going to suddenly wake up and decide they want to resource a brand-new curriculum. So, we have to look to ourselves, not to others, to find creative solutions to that problem. But we have to have an equitable system for all of our children.Youth work: absolutely crucial. This document tries to make those linkages between what happens in schools, what happens in communities, what happens in the home and how that relates to attainment, and having the opportunity for engagement in non-formal education activities, whether that’s your local youth club, whether that’s your local young farmers’ club—whatever it may be that is in your locality. Access to that for young people is vitally, vitally important if we are to address not only attainment, but also to address issues around well-being, because that’s the service, in many ways, that we can use to address issues around well-being.

Lynne Neagle AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement and welcome the plan that she’s published today? We know, of course, that there are challenges, but I think that it is a very welcome plan and that it is very useful to have everything in one document, in one place, with the timescales attached. I also welcome the announcement that you’ve made about the curriculum and the phased approach. I think the most important thing when doing something as ambitious as this is that we get it right for learners, and I’m grateful that you have listened and have responded in that way. As you know, it is an area that the committee has looked at and is continuing to look at. One of the issues that was raised is that the schools that aren’t pioneer schools did not feel sufficiently in the loop and sufficiently involved in the process. So, I would like to ask what your plans are, going forward, to make sure that that changes and that we are all on the same journey in Wales.I was also really pleased to see the very strong focus in this document on the need to improve teacher education and professional development. As you’re aware, that’s also an issue that the committee is looking at. One of the concerns that I’ve had is that embarking on something as ambitious as curriculum reform can act as a distraction for some from the absolutely fundamental need to ensure that we have the best quality teaching possible. As you’re aware, this is an issue that Estyn has raised regularly as one of the weakest areas of our system. So, I’d like to ask how you intend to ensure, going forward, that we are all fully focused on that in particular in the profession.But I do want to give a very warm welcome today to the focus in the plan on well-being. As you’re aware, this is something that I feel very strongly about. The committee is embarking on a new inquiry into the emotional and mental health of children and young people, and we see the role of the schools as absolutely fundamental in that. As you’re aware, there is an enormous amount of good practice out there in individual schools. You announced the pilot yesterday with the health Secretary. But I would like to ask, in terms of early intervention and that universal support for children and young people, how you intend to ensure that that good practice is rolled out as far as possible across Wales, but more importantly how you intend to ensure that schools are accountable for delivering on the well-being agenda. Just to close by saying that, like Llyr, I really welcome the emphasis on youth work. It’s great to see it mainstreamed in a document like that and to see the role that it plays fully recognised. Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Lynne. The whole purpose of the document is to respond to the OECD’s criticism about a previous lack of communication from the centre, and we have to listen to that and hold ourselves accountable for clarity around that communication and a coherence about all the strands of reform that are going on at the moment. There’s lots of reform, and sometimes people ask the question, ‘Well, why and for what purpose?’ If we want the profession to engage in this, we have to be very clear ourselves, and that’s what the plan is dedicated to doing.Quality teaching is absolutely at the heart of the plan, and we are embarking, as you will know, on a range of programmes, but just to highlight the national approach to professional learning and what does that actually mean. So, we’re working with the regional education consortia on this, and there are broadly three main areas that we are focusing on. The first is helping all teachers to understand fully and prepare for the new curriculum and new teaching approaches. That’s regardless of whether you’re in a pioneer school or not, because we need all our teachers to understand the basics of this new approach to the curriculum. That’s already under way, and our new professional teaching standards are a key to achieving this, because they create that entitlement for teachers to say, ‘I have a right to this continual professional learning throughout my career.’ There are more specific skills that all teachers, again, will need and those relate to assessment, curriculum design and the cross-curricular responsibilities that they will have for delivering this new curriculum. Some of that work is under way at present, but we need to develop that further as we go forward. That’s one of the reasons why we need to adjust the timetable for the curriculum: to ensure that that kind of professional learning offer is available consistently, right the way across Wales. Of course, then, there will be specific support needs arising out of the individual areas of learning and experience that are subject specific or AoLE specific. So, there are three strands to the professional learning offer that we will have available.Like you, Lynne, I have a personal commitment to the issue of well-being. What we know is that we can’t expect children to make the most of their educational opportunities if they’re dealing with other things in their life. I can’t take away bereavement. I can’t take away that some children’s parents will split up. I can’t take away that there will be other traumas in that child’s life. But what we can do is help those children have the resilience that they need, so that when life throws the inevitably tough times at them, and there will be tough times for them, they will have within them the resources that they can call on to manage those situations appropriately and respond to and not be worn down by them. That’s for all our children. We shouldn’t fall into the trap of saying there’s only a specific type of child who suffers from that, because these are universal truths. That’s why we are working across Government. The new project that was announced yesterday will take place in your constituency of Torfaen, and Blaenau Gwent and south Powys. Wrexham and Denbighshire and Ceredigion will all take part in that project, and we’re looking to see that learning—. We’re trying to learn from that so that we can ensure that there’s a consistent roll-out across the country. Crucially, of course, the new curriculum includes the AoLE of health and well-being, so this will be an integral part of what we do in our schools and it will have equal status to the other AoLEs within the curriculum. That’s one of the exciting prospects, I think, about why we’re taking this forward.Estyn. Well, of course, we’ve announced—. I’m very supportive of the review that they themselves have announced, because unless we get Estyn and inspection aligned to our new curriculum, again, schools will just revert to type and do what they think Estyn needs of them. So, we need to ensure our Estyn inspection regime is aligned to our new curriculum, so that there is not an inconsistency and a confusion for schools, and the review will report next year.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. I do welcome your announcement that the new curriculum will be phased in, but I do so with a little bit of caution. On the one hand, a phased roll-out makes sense, for instance, it enables teething troubles to be resolved and it gives more time for teachers, as you’ve said, to adapt; however, it’s surely going to involve at least some teaching staff having to teach to two different curricula, and the potential for additional stress and confusion for teachers, pupils and parents concerns me. Have you consulted teachers about this potential challenge and how it will be addressed? What support, help and advice are you going to offer teachers and school leaders to ease the transition?No matter how good the new curriculum may be, the standard of teaching is key. That’s something you’ve already mentioned today: the standard of teaching. So, I would like you to explain how the new teacher standards regime will ensure that the new curriculum will be taught as effectively and as well as can be achieved. How will the new standards support and promote the new curriculum and ensure that any teaching staff who are not performing to the correct standard are helped to achieve it, and if they can’t, are helped to an alternative path?Comment has been made by teaching unions that teachers won’t be ready to teach the new curriculum, and I think your planned roll-out is at least partly in response to that. But how are you going to make sure that, even with the additional time, those teachers will be ready and confident to deliver the new curriculum in accordance with your timetable?Lastly, you refer to the education report and report card. I would like you to give a little bit more detail about this. Would you explain how it will work and what the objectives will be? You’ve also said that you want to have improved robust assessment and accountability. I just ask: assessment and accountability of whom, and how do you envisage this working in practice? Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Can I thank Michelle for her questions? Key to the first set of questions is the issue around professional learning and, as I’ve outlined to previous speakers, there is a comprehensive timeline associated with what we expect to deliver for a national professional learning model, as well as improved initial teacher education. The new teaching and leadership standards are an important part of this, because they quite clearly set out the expectation that we expect teachers to be lifelong learners themselves. They should be the best student in the classroom. I’ve got no time for somebody who claims that they are the finished article. There is always an opportunity to continue to learn more and to reflect that back in your practice within the classroom.But let’s not be—. Let’s not mix up teaching standards with issues around professional competency. They are two very, very different things, and there are two very distinct processes for dealing with that. Let’s not get hung up that these professional standards are about dealing with issues around professional competency. There is more that we need to do. There is more that we need to do to support staff who are struggling and to ensure they have the opportunity to address difficulties in their performance, and there is more that we need to do to support schools as employers and LEAs if they find themselves in a situation where, despite all best efforts, somebody should not really remain in the classroom, but that is different from the professional teaching standards and the expectations that are set out.I’m glad that Michelle has brought up the issue of the report card and the national annual report, because nobody else has picked up on that, and it is an important new innovation. We’ve looked at international best practice, and it’s all very well holding individual schools to account via a school categorisation model; this is about holding the Welsh Government to account. This is about sitting down on an annual basis to judge where we are as a nation in terms of our education system—yes, in terms of attainment, but also looking at the wider determinants that we’re talking about in this document. And it’s about that self-reflection as a Government on where we are. If Michelle would like to look at international examples of best practice, I would alert her to the system in Ontario for instance, which we’ve been learning a lot about. So, this is about holding us to account, not just holding teachers to account, or schools to account, or the consortia to account, but holding this Government to account for its performance on a national basis, and I’m really pleased that you picked up on that.

Thank you. I have five more speakers. We’ve had one from each of the four parties, so, if the five speakers can just ask a question, I am prepared to extend the session. If I find that you don’t, then I will cut the session down. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you for your statement and your deliberative approach to rolling this forward and making a success of it. My question is on objective 3. Some things can’t wait, so will you look at the research published in the British Medical Journal by Professor Allyson Pollock on the importance of children not getting collision in contact sports, and banning rugby tackles in schools? She was right on PFI, so we need to ensure that we are taking notice of this research, as this being a major contributor to concussion in young people.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Jenny, for that. I am aware that my predecessor, Huw Lewis, met with campaigners on this particular issue and statements were issued at that time. I am also aware that my colleague Rebecca Evans is actively pursuing this case and we’ll be working across Government to look at evidence and to look at ways forward.

Hefin David AC: The Children, Young People and Education Committee took evidence from Mick Waters last week, and I welcome what you said about separating competence and the new standards. But I do have a little bit of concern about the language used in some of the standards. It’s quite complex and takes some time to interpret. Mick Waters said that they held long conversations when the working group were developing their descriptors and that they need to be—could they be so precise that they can’t be misinterpreted, in which case they’re at risk of becoming trite, or whether they become complex and sometimes difficult to make sense of initially. And the feedback from teachers was that they appreciated the complex descriptors. Now, I’m concerned by that because some of the descriptors I had trouble interpreting myself, given some of the complexity and the language. What role will the Education Workforce Council play in, where there may be those difficulties, helping refine them?I’ve also noted that the professional learning passport is mentioned several times in the descriptors, in the standards. For example, it states that the professional learning passport is used to support reflective practice and record an active commitment to continued professional learning. We know that the professional learning passport hasn’t had a wide uptake, despite the £300,000-worth of funding from the Welsh Government. So, how will the professional learning passport be further embedded to enable the descriptors and the new standards to be used effectively? I feel that the EWC has an important role to play here and would like to see an enhanced reflective role for the EWC in the development of the professional standards.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Hefin. Can I assure you that the teaching standards were developed by the professionals for the professionals, and, indeed, they also trialled in schools before they were formally adopted? It is a source of concern to me that the professional learning passport has not been as well used as I would like it to. I think it has real potential, and we need to reflect on how we can make it as easy for professionals to use as possible and as relevant for them to use as possible—not having to go home and spend hours and hours and hours doing extra work, but, actually, how they can use that interactively as they go about their daily work, sharing that with other professionals in their schools, and, of course, information technology is a great way in which we can address some of that. The EWC initially had a role to play in the initial work on teaching standards carried out by the previous administration. The EWC is a new organisation. They’ve done a tremendously good job in registering all the different professions that we now ask them to register. They’ve got an important new role in validating initial teacher education courses and we will constantly reflect as to other roles that the EWC could perform on our behalf.

Neil McEvoy AC: I’ll declare an interest as a former teacher. I know what you said about professional standards, and there’s a lot of talk about generic standards and raising standards, and lots of slogans, lots of buzz words. But I’m concerned about the detail, really. So, I wonder if you’ll allow me to give you a little test, Cabinet Secretary. Can you outline the contents of the new teaching qualification for teaching assistants—what it involves and how many hours that it actually takes, because the teaching assistants who I speak to are just not very impressed?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, I’m sorry to hear that. In Wales, we’ve traditionally used teaching assistants to a great deal of effect. It’s really interesting, when I visit other countries, like Finland, and, most recently, southern Irish schools, that teaching assistants do not play a part in the education system at all, or to a very, very, very, very small degree. Usually, the only adult in the room is the qualified teacher. Now, I think teaching assistants have an important part to play, especially in our foundation phase, and, if there are questions about the quality of the professional learning opportunities that our teaching assistants have, I do meet regularly with Unison to talk about these and I’m happy to take them up.

Neil McEvoy AC: But what is it?

It was a question. Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you. First of all, I would like to welcome the action plan as a positive and transformational step forward for Wales, and my question really is based around the fact that we do have the best ever GCSE results for Wales. Are we complacent in that journey in moving forward? Do you feel that attainment gap that we are now closing is closing fast enough? And are you very confident that the way forward for us is to continue with the OECD’s commentary around the fact that this transformational curriculum is the right way forward for Wales? Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Could I say I’m absolutely not complacent at all? Is the attainment gap closing fast enough? No, it’s not. I’m particularly concerned about the fact that our children on free school meals continue not to reach the same attainment levels as their richer counterparts. But I’m also equally concerned about how few children in some local authorities who are on school action plus reach the level 2+ threshold. In some local authorities it’s a real, real cause for concern. I’m also concerned, for instance, about children who do not receive their education in a traditional school, whether that be in a pupil referral unit or in education otherwise than at school. So, there are many, many levels to this issue around the attainment gap. It’s not just about free school meals. It is about additional learning needs and it is about EOTAS, and this action plan sets out what we intend to do with all aspects of that.

Thank you. And, finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I welcome today’s statement, but may I ask the Cabinet Secretary to explain how today’s announcement will assist Welsh-medium education in particular? I am pleased to have two excellent Welsh-medium schools in my constituency. Ysgol Llangynwyd serves the west, and Llanhari serves the east, but both will find difficulty in finding sufficient numbers of chemistry, maths, and physics teachers and so on. With increasing demand for high-quality Welsh-medium education in all subjects, how are we ensuring that we improve educational standards for all children and young people, particularly in the mother tongue of Wales?

Kirsty Williams AC: I’m really sorry, Deputy Presiding Officer, I’m not sure whether I got all of that. But what I will say is: Huw, you’re absolutely right. If we’re to have an equitable education system we need to ensure that children have equal chances, whether they are in English-medium, Welsh-medium, or bilingual provision. And, that’s, again, one of the reasons to make a decision about slowing the curriculum introduction down slightly, so that we can address the needs specifically in the Welsh-medium sector. There are a number of programmes in which we can do that. So, that’s alternative routes into teaching for more mature students. It’s developing maybe people who are working in a learning support capacity at the moment. It’s about increasing our secondment schemes, so people who have language capabilities can have a break from school to go and develop them further.It’s even about innovative technological advances. So, officials have been up recently to look at the delivery of Gaelic education in the Outer Hebrides. My goodness me, if we think we’ve got challenges in rural Wales, go to the Outer Hebrides and look to see how you provide a bilingual education system in the Outer Hebrides. One of the ways in which they’ve supported Gaelic—[Interruption.] One of the ways in which they’ve supported Gaelic—[Interruption.] As I was just saying, my officials were there just over the summer. One of the ways they’ve supported that is by the e-school, and that has been absolutely fantastic in terms of attainment for those children. So, they’ve got university professors teaching science via Gaelic over an internet link. They’ve got a philosophy professor at a university teaching philosophy via Gaelic over a link. Actually, what this is doing is enabling more children and parents to make that positive choice about learning through Gaelic, and then that, in itself, drives then more demand to be able to demonstrate to people, ‘You have a real professional opportunity and a lifelong career should you move into this sector’. So, we’re actively looking at whether those technological solutions that are being used innovatively in other parts of the world—whether we can adopt some of that best practice here in Wales to address those situations.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

4. 4. Statement: Transport Proposals for Deeside

Item 4 on the agenda this afternoon is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure on transport proposals for Deeside, and I call on Ken Skates to introduce the statement.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I welcome this opportunity today to update Members regarding a number of transport developments in Deeside. It goes without saying that, as a Government, we are absolutely determined to spread prosperity and support economic development across all parts of Wales.In March this year I launched my transport vision for north Wales and the north-east Wales metro. This vision is to create a quality integrated transport system across the region that maximises the economic opportunities by connecting people, communities, and businesses to jobs, facilities, and services. Improving connectivity goes beyond the regional border, which is why I’ve set up a transport steering group that brings together key partners from north Wales, Merseyside, and Cheshire to deliver my vision. The steering group will co-ordinate the development of a work programme for the north-east Wales metro as well as taking forward investments in other parts of the region. Over recent months it has worked with local authorities, business sectors, and bus and rail operators to develop a package of transport investments for delivery over the coming months. The main focus has been on creating integrated transport hubs at key employment sites across north Wales and the wider Mersey Dee area. In north Wales these hubs are centred in the Bangor, Abergele, Rhyl, St Asaph, Wrexham, and Deeside areas. It is my intention over the coming weeks to announce a programme of metro initiatives in the Wrexham hub area, but today my focus is on Deeside.My statement today will announce my decision about the preferred option for the Deeside corridor scheme, as well as outlining wider initiatives being taken forward in the Deeside area. I’ll be making further statements over the coming weeks and months to explain my proposals for the other hubs.Transport integration is about joining up all transport modes, and the package of measures we are planning for Deeside delivers on all modes and improves infrastructure and services. Importantly, the improvements support the Deeside plan published earlier this year by Flintshire County Council. I would like to congratulate the authority on their plan, which identifies the transport interventions necessary to deliver opportunities for economic growth. The package of measures we are taking forward goes a long way towards meeting the aspirations within the Deeside plan.Firstly, I am pleased to announce that, after taking into account the technical, social, economic, and environmental aspects of the Deeside corridor scheme, plus the outcome of the public consultation we held, I have decided to adopt the red route as the preferred option. This option, which includes increased capacity on the existing A548 and a new road between the A55 and A548, I believe, will address the transport problems we had previously identified in the A55/A494/A548 Deeside corridor improvement key stage 2 study. The proposed route will help address the chronic congestion the area suffers, it will improve journey times for both businesses and commuting traffic, and it will also strengthen the social and economic links between north Wales, Deeside industrial estate, Chester and beyond. Villages such as Oakenholt and Northop Hall will see the benefits from reduced through traffic on the A548 and B5125.Deputy Presiding Officer, I will be publishing a TR111 plan in order protect the route under the Town and Country Planning (General Development Procedure) Order 1995. This means that the local planning authority will refer to the Welsh Government all future planning applications that are near the preferred route. The next steps will be to investigate further and develop a preliminary design. In particular, we will be looking at the environmental and engineering issues in more detail, taking account of the comments made during the consultation and looking at a junction strategy and options for side roads and accesses. The design will also take into consideration the demands that may arise from advances in technology such as connected and autonomous vehicles. It is critical that what we deliver with our investment today is fit for the future.Following preliminary design, we will publish draft Orders under the Highways Act 1980 and the Acquisition of Land Act 1981. The draft Orders comprise the powers to establish a line, modify the side roads, purchase land and put in place any other rights we need to deliver the scheme. We will also be progressing the delivery of the A494 River Dee improvement scheme. This scheme will investigate options that will resolve the existing traffic bottleneck at this location of the network and overcome the serviceability issues with the existing bridge. Our development work to improve connectivity by rail is also moving to the next stage. We are currently discussing with Network Rail the commissioning of further work on a new Deeside Parkway and co-locating Shotton higher and Shotton lower. The latter will enable a seamless interchange for passengers wanting to change between the Wrexham and Bidston line and the north Wales main coast line. As for Deeside Parkway, this offers an exciting opportunity to improve access to the business park, the introduction of park-and-ride provision, and facilities for road freight traffic. We will be working closely with Flintshire County Council to deliver these proposals further.I have provided the local authority with funding to improve access to Deeside by sustainable modes. Over £1 million has been allocated to improve bus services and to encourage walking and cycling. Part of this money will be spent on developing bus interchanges, bus priority measures on the B5129 Shotton corridor and bus infrastructure on Deeside industrial park. The remainder of the grant will support the introduction of active travel routes within the Deeside industrial park. This will result in a complete network of dedicated cycleways on all access routes within Deeside industrial park, with seamless links to rail and bus hubs. Secure cycle parking will be built into the design of the transport hubs. The cycling and walking provisions in the Deeside industrial park will be used as the exemplar to guide the development of other key employment hubs across the region.We are also working with local authorities in the Mersey-Dee area, and with bus operators, to develop a bus quality partnership scheme aimed at improving the travel experience and increasing passenger numbers. We’ve already invested £5.5 million in the Northern Gateway site to facilitate commercial development. Further investment of £4.7 million has been committed to continue with building additional road infrastructure, to open land for development and attract further businesses to locate at the site. This infrastructure will improve transport connectivity to and within the site.All the initiatives I have described will go a long way to address the barriers to accessing jobs in the Deeside hub. They will also form one of the building blocks that will deliver a north-east Wales metro vision of a well-connected and high-quality integrated transport system.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thanks very much for your statement. You refer to your establishment of a transport steering group to develop a work programme for the north-east Wales metro, referring to a range of partners in north Wales, Merseyside and Cheshire. Now, of course, there already is a working group, created via the Mersey Dee Alliance, the North Wales Economic Ambition Board and their partners. To what extent does this correlate with that and their proposals in their own vision, and of course 360, primarily in the context of rail? The four hubs you describe in terms of north-east Wales miss out that huge area between Deeside and Wrexham, and particularly the areas where connectivity is poorest, in some of the smaller towns and villages. I would therefore welcome a comment from you on how that will be joined up, and those communities will not be left without access, particularly for young people to work, or older people to key services. In terms of your other hubs—Bangor, presumably you’re talking primarily about the bridge, or third crossing, or whatever that might be, and Abergele-Rhyl—to what extent do those fit into the north-east Wales metro? Because you’re talking about four hubs and the north-east, so what is the relationship between the two? Are we talking about something different, or is it one single project with four different strands within it?You refer to the Deeside plan published by Flintshire County Council. You may be aware, as I certainly am, that again, as I mentioned before, many of the smaller towns and villages that aren’t on Deeside are concerned not to miss out on this connectivity, and I hope you would comment on that. Now, it’s nine years since the public inquiry recommended to a predecessor Minister during the third Assembly that the previous proposal on Aston Hill should not go ahead, and we are where we are. I’m sure the residents of Aston Hill and the thousands living in the surrounding areas will welcome your decision to adopt the red option as opposed to the alternative. Clearly, the A55/A494/A548 corridor is below modern standards, with some of the slip roads being too short, too close, and generating poor visibility. We understand the red route would be an 8-mile road between the A55 and A548 with two lanes in each direction, leading to an increase in capacity and an improvement in journey times between the River Dee and Northop interchange. However, clearly your decision will not be so warmly received by the people living on that route. In your consultation, you said the red route would be likely to affect about 56 hectares of agricultural land and farm businesses and that mitigation would be by financial compensation and by accommodation works. Could you tell me what proposals you have to engage with those businesses and individuals who will be affected in relation to that mitigation and financial compensation? There’s also, as I know from correspondence you’ve received that I’ve been copied on from local residents, a belief or a call for the need for a crawler lane, and good signage at the start of the red route, and I wonder whether you can confirm whether those will be accommodated or will be considered. There’s also a call in certain quarters that, even with the red route, the A494/A55 interchange has still been listed by the Automobile Association as one of the worst in the UK, and that some action will be required there—not to increase the lanes, but to have better egress from the main highway. You refer to the A494 Dee bridge. In the consultation you describe that as a separate scheme, but can you confirm, as I know to be the case, that the red route is dependent on that, and confirm how the two will work concurrently to ensure that the whole can deliver as intended? You refer to developments of bus interchanges and bus infrastructure. How do you respond to concern expressed by community transport providers in Flintshire that they resisted or rejected the offer from the council to take on some of the commercial routes, and that the pilot minibus schemes put into Kinnerton and Buckley being run by licensed taxi companies may not be viable after the initial additional funding runs out for commercial companies to continue, and also their concern that the north Wales transport for health group, set up by the Welsh Government, has not met since May 2016, and that the Welsh Government has not reconvened the meetings? Again, for many people, this transport connectivity is critical, but those who perhaps need it most are the most affected by its absence.Finally, you referred to Deeside Parkway as an exciting opportunity to improve rail access to the business park. As you know, the Wrexham Bidston Rail Users' Association have highlighted that rail travel to work in Flintshire is only 1 per cent, less than half the overall Welsh average, that many employees have to use their car to access employment and those who can’t may not realise their employment potential, and that 20 per cent of interviews and job offers at the Deeside industrial park are declined because of transport difficulties—and that happened, in fact, to my own oldest son. Thankfully, he found alternative employment elsewhere. Do you propose that the location for the parkway should be adjacent or within Deeside industrial park, and if so, how will you mitigate the impact on Hawarden Bridge?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Mark Isherwood for his comments and for his questions? I think many Members around the Chamber will welcome today’s announcement. Many Members have been consistent in calling for investment in north Wales to alleviate the congestion, particularly along this part of what is a key economic artery. I’ll deal with each question in turn, beginning with the last question that Mark Isherwood asked concerning Deeside Parkway. I think this offers an enormous opportunity to break down barriers that too many young people—indeed, people of any age—face when trying to access job opportunities. The Member referred to the 20 per cent statistic in relation to those who are unable to undertake job interviews because they cannot access affordable or reliable public transport. That figure covers the whole of the Mersey-Dee area, and is part of the justification for viewing this initiative as a cross-border project to ensure that people in Wales can access job interview opportunities not just within north Wales but also across the border. And it will be essential that Deeside Parkway is located on the industrial park. The initial design and plans for the parkway—the cycle routes, the bus lanes—have been designed in such a way to enable people to shift from one mode to another and to travel seamlessly within the industrial park.In terms of the steering group, the Member is right, we do not wish to have a multitude of organisations leading this work. The taskforce that was set up to look at what rail enhancements are required for the region has produced an outstanding prospectus, Growth Track 360. The steering group will take members from that taskforce and it will also look at additional membership from local authorities, because their investment in the north Wales metro will also be crucial indeed. It’s entirely possible that the growth deal could contribute to widening the scope and the scale of the metro in the years to come. In terms of the design of the metro, it is intended to couple together communities large and small with primary places of employment. We’ve identified those initial hubs where work will take place in the first stages as a priority, simply because of the volume of people that are employed at those destinations and the prospects for jobs growth. We’ve also coupled with the metro vision strategic economic development projects, and the Member is aware of the advanced manufacturing research institute that is being taken forward at speed and that will see one base at Broughton and another in the Deeside industrial park. So, we are coupling together employment opportunities with transport investment in the future.I’m just going to touch on the public debate that took place regarding the preferred option. I do recognise that any proposal for a new road and for road enhancements can be controversial, but it was recognised by more than 80 per cent of those who responded to the consultation, or who attended the exhibitions, that local public transport, local public roads and trunk roads are vital to accessing good work opportunities and for social purposes. More than 80 per cent rated investment in transport as important or very important. In terms of the preference for one route over another, the support for the red route stood at 74 per cent, for doing nothing at 5 per cent, and the remainder for the blue route. In terms of those affected—and clearly, had we progressed with the blue route there would have been incredible disturbance for many, many people living in the area affected, as well as a major impact of the competitiveness of the region, as upgrades would need to be taking place over a substantial period of time. As we move towards designing the specific route, we will be engaging with stakeholders and any compensation that needs to be made in line with existing arrangements will be discussed with landowners and property owners in the established manner. I do recognise that there is need as well for good and proper signage at the start of the current red route plan. Coming off the M56, or indeed travelling towards the M56, I think it would be hugely beneficial to have smart signage that is able to steer traffic away from accident black spots when they occur, and to ensure that travel through to north Wales and along the north Wales coast is as seamless and as smooth as possible. That signage, and the request for a crawler lane as the red route rises up towards Northop and Northop Hall, will be considered during the design stage. Likewise, I mentioned in my statement a junction strategy that will examine the safety and compliance at current junctions. It’s been found—. I know that the Member is well aware of many of the junctions on the A494/A55 interchange—you’ll be aware that some of the junctions are poorly aligned with the lanes, some of the slip roads are too short, some of the junctions attract a huge number of accidents and must be dealt with. Indeed, there were two tragic deaths in just the last month on the A494 at Aston Hill. So, the junctions will be dealt with via a strategy of improving safety, journey times and capacity. Mark Isherwood raised the question of the A494 Dee bridge, and the need to ensure that this bridge receives the appropriate investment to upgrade it to a safe level and to make sure that traffic can flow smoothly where there is currently a pretty severe bottleneck, especially at peak hours. That work will take place whilst, in parallel, it will not be dependent on us pursuing the red route. That work must take place regardless of the Deeside corridor project. So, that investment will take place in parallel, but it’s not contingent on the delivery within a certain time frame for the red route, although we would wish to deliver both as soon as possible. Finally, the Member has asked about the capacity on the existing A494 and A55, suggesting that at the Ewloe interchange there is work that’s required, even though we’re going to progress a red route. I would agree with the Member; that will form part of the strategic review of junctions. And along the A494 on Aston Hill, it’s a staggering fact that as many as 70,000 vehicles currently use that particular stretch every day—70,000 people or more using a road that was not designed for the twenty-first century, and that figure equates to several sections of the M4, and yet the A494 is only two lanes. So, it’s my belief that this work is long overdue. I also believe it will be supported by the vast majority of the people in the region, and that it will lead to the region becoming far more competitive.

Dai Lloyd AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement on the transport proposals in Deeside? And whilst I welcome elements of the statement, I do question the rationale behind bringing forward separate updates to this Chamber for the four hubs within the north-east Wales metro, given the obvious interdependence between the hubs as part of that metro project. I believe that we need to be discussing this in the round and in a holistic way. We need to be testing whether the metro project stacks up as a whole and I would ask the Cabinet Secretary to set aside Government time to enable us to do just that.Turning to some specifics, as regards buses, plainly, the provision of timely and quality bus services will be a key test for the success of the metro project. Can I ask the Cabinet Secretary what consideration he has given to utilising new powers over the regulation of bus services to establish a publicly owned bus provider to deliver services as part of this metro project? And turning to the consideration of rail, obviously, Cabinet Secretary, while you have engaged with Network Rail on the commissioning of a new Deeside Parkway, as you’ve said, and co-locating Shotton high at Shotton low, we know, of course, that Wales is chronically underfunded in terms of rail infrastructure investment. After all, Wales, as you know, has 6 per cent of the UK rail network but only 1 per cent of the UK rail investment. So, what follows from that is: how are you attempting to ensure that Wales receives its fair share of capital funding, and what other projects are you currently pushing for in the wider north Wales region in order to further the capital investment in rail in Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Dai Lloyd for his questions and his comments? Bus reforms have been consulted on already, in the last 12 months. That consultation took place at the start of this year and ended in May. We’ll be taking forward, based on the consultation, a further piece of work in the spring of next year, which could, in turn, inform provisions within potential future legislation, but it is a very valid question about whether public bodies could and should run local bus services. It’s something that I’m personally in favour of, and I also believe that we need to ensure that corrections are made, as soon as we possibly can with the new powers, to some of the problems that have been in existence since deregulation in the 1980s. But, as I say, the consultation did take place in this area. It will inform a further consultation on the package of provisions that could be included in potential future legislation. In terms of the Deeside hub and the other hubs that are proposed for north Wales, it’s a fact that Flintshire County Council have already developed a very effective Deeside plan that has informed the specific interventions within the Deeside hub as proposed today. We will be working with other local authorities on similar hub visions, and we will be linking them together through the metro concept. This is a system and a design that must serve local needs and be worked up with those local authorities where they’re going to be situated, rather than have them imposed by Welsh Government. I’m very keen to work with my partners across north Wales to ensure that the hubs and the metro system that link them operate for the people, and are designed by their local representatives as much as by experts and designers within Welsh Government. In terms of investment in rail infrastructure, the Member is right; it’s 11 per cent of the Network Rail Wales route, but only 1.5 per cent of funding, in the latest control period, has actually come to Wales for infrastructure investment. That’s not acceptable. We made a powerful case for devolution of responsibility for rail infrastructure, and with it appropriate fair funding. We continue to make that call. In the meantime, we continue to press upon the Secretary of State for Transport the need to invest in Wales, and in particular in some of those projects that require urgent attention. The Member asked what other rail-related projects I believe should attract immediate attention and I would say the north Wales main line.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary, although I must say I don’t welcome the statement and the decision to go with the red route. I appreciate it’s been a difficult decision and, yes, it’s very, very true that congestion at Queensferry is absolutely appalling. I used to have to commute through that interchange every day, and I know from personal experience it’s an absolute nightmare. But I don’t know that carving a new road across green space between Oakenholt and Kelsterton is the right way to go. It seems to me that the blue route was the better option. I appreciate that it would have caused a lot of disturbance in the Deeside area while it was under construction, but what concerns me about the red route is that, effectively, you’re just moving the bottleneck further west. The problem we’ve got at Queensferry right now is that, effectively, you have four lanes narrowing into two, all of these different junctions coming off it, and, yes, okay, we won’t have the additional junction problem at the end of the red route, but you are still going to have four lanes of traffic combining into two lanes, which is going to create a bottleneck. So, I really don’t think that the red route is going to solve a lot of problems. I think it’s just going to move the problem further west to between Northop and Holywell.Another thing that concerns me about the decision to adopt the red route is that, at the moment, that area that the new road is going to travel across—that’s currently a green zone; it’s currently a buffer zone between the settlements of Flint and Bagillt and Kelsterton, Connah’s Quay, and that conurbation in the north-east corner of north Wales. It concerns me that, with this construction of a new road, there will be encouragement to remove that green barrier entirely and, eventually, we’ll end up with a conurbation from Flint to Queensferry. Can you assure the people of Flint and Oakenholt, and round those areas, and Northop, that their environment is not going to become subsumed, eventually, into a conurbation? What are you going to do to protect that green space?Another thing that worries me is that—. I’m all for co-operating with the north-west, I’m all for improving links, but we do have to be careful in north Wales because, at the moment, were already starting to become a dormitory for the north-west. I would like to hear what measures you’re going to introduce in the future to make sure that north Wales doesn’t become a dormitory for the north-west and the west midlands, courtesy of this new route and these improvements. I’m not criticising improving the road system or the metro or the rail network. What I want to know is: have you considered the long-term consequences? How are you going to stop north Wales being turned into a dormitory? How are you going to stop the A55 corridor from becoming a dormitory for England?Okay, moving on to the consultation, you mentioned before that, you know, it’s gone out to consultation. That consultation period was eight weeks long. To what extent did you publicise that consultation? How many local people knew about the consultation in sufficient time to be able to respond adequately to it? And how many respondents did you actually get, and who were they?Finally, you’ve mentioned £5.5 million that you’ve invested in the Northern Gateway. I’d be interested to learn how many jobs this money has generated and what sort of jobs they are. Are they higher paid jobs or low paid, and are they full time or part time? Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for her questions? The people of Aston Hill, Queensferry, Shotton, Saltney, Ewloe and Broughton I think will be very surprised that UKIP were so keen to support the blue route, because there is no doubt that the blue route would have impacted on the quality of life of a huge number of people. Even when completed, even when widened, it would have still led traffic up a steep hill that would have, in turn, created poor air quality for thousands upon thousands of people. Doing nothing, as the response has shown, was not an option. Only 5 per cent of those who responded said that we should take no action whatsoever. Seventy-four per cent supported the red route and, in terms of the consultation, I’m pleased to say that more than 2,500 responses were received to the consultation. More than 1,800 people attended the exhibitions, which were well publicised and, indeed, an additional exhibition was held at the request of one of the local Members, Hannah Blythyn, the Member for Delyn.We will be working with the communities that will be affected and with those individual landowners and property owners to ensure that there is environmental mitigation and compensation, and that there is compensation for owners of property and land. But let me just pick up on one point that the Member made about people from the north-west living in north Wales. I’m not sure whether the Member is aware of this, but approximately 25,000 to 30,000 people each day cross the border from Wales into England to work. And approximately 25,000 people cross the border from England into Wales each day. As far as the regional economy is concerned in the north-east of Wales and the north-west, there is no border, and we should not seek to draw a slate curtain across a very active border—one that contributes massively to the GDP and GVA of the overall Welsh economy. We need to strengthen that economy, generate better quality jobs, closer to people’s homes—better quality jobs for people who live in north Wales. But, at the moment, it’s possible to get from Manchester and Liverpool to Deeside industrial park in, what—40 minutes? On a bad day, on the A494 up Aston Hill, it can take just as long to get from Deeside industrial park to Mold. That is not acceptable. We need to make sure that people who live in north-east Wales have good, quick access to job opportunities in what is Europe’s biggest and one of the finest industrial parks. So, I make no apology for creating jobs and creating employment opportunities in Deeside industrial park; it should be something that UKIP is proud of.In terms of the specific questions, technical questions about the A494-A55 interchange and whether it will move the bottleneck, I dispute that as well, because the option of the red route now gives two access roads into north Wales. One can be pursued for north Wales, another can be pursued for Wrexham, and therefore it will not move the bottleneck, because you will have an option of taking traffic off the Aston Hill, if it’s going to carry on through to north Wales, whereas existing traffic can stay on there if motorists wish to turn off for Wrexham or a south-bound journey onward to other communities such as Chester. I recognise that the Member will have her own opinions about the project and her own opposition to the preferred route, but I would urge her to base her preferences on the evidence, and the evidence clearly shows that the red route it the best option for the community and for the region.

Hannah Blythyn AC: As the red route, as announced today, will have a significant impact on my own constituency of Delyn, it’s probably my democratic duty here today to raise the number of concerns that constituents have raised with me and a number of wider points.I want to start with perhaps what could be perceived as a somewhat pedantic and slightly parochial point in respect of the title of today’s statement, and that is ‘Transport Proposals for Deeside’. Because, if you look at the initial proposal map, with the red and blue routes, actually, a significant portion of that covers the communities of Oakenholt, Flint, Flint mountain and Northop, which fall outside the Deeside area. I’m more than happy to offer Cardiff-based Welsh Government officials a crash course on the respective communities of north-east Wales and Flintshire, but, on a more serious point—and I did raise this as part of the consultation process—I think, for this to be as accessible as possible for people, they need to understand that it is affecting their area as well, and that it is a consultation and a proposal for them to be involved with. I hope that this will be taken into consideration at the next stage of the process.Whilst, as we’ve already heard, there’s been much local debate and disagreement over the two proposals put on the table, and I know that that disagreement and debate is set to continue, I think we’d be hard-pressed to find anyone in north-east Wales who doesn’t think that investment of some sort in our transport infrastructure is needed, and particularly in the key gateway into north Wales. However, Cabinet Secretary, you’ll be aware from my correspondence on this matter that a number of my constituents and communities in the area have raised a variety of concerns, which I want to briefly outline here today.Of course, there are the wider environmental implications and concerns associated with any proposal, any new road of this size. And I know that the so-called red route will impact on a number of farms within my constituency, and we will see the loss of woodlands and public rights of way. Can I ask what work has been and will be done in respect of this, and what part will meeting our well-being of future generation goals play in terms of assessing the environmental implications of the red route as proposed today? At £250 million this transport plan is a significant investment and it should also bring with it significant social benefits to the communities in the area, and I’d like to see any social benefit reinvested in the community and used to enhance facilities. You’ve talked about the active travel plans for Deeside industrial park, which I welcome, but can that actually go out further across Flintshire, to enable people to be able to cycle to work where possible, for people’s health and well-being? Cabinet Secretary, do you have a view at this stage on how social benefits could be used and put back into the community? Could social benefits coming from the road fund contribute, for example, to things like the capital programme to overhaul Theatr Clwyd?Another point: understandably, my constituents are concerned about the impact the proposal could have on the surrounding towns that I’ve already mentioned, particularly the traffic through the likes of Flint and Northop, both of which can already be congested at peak times. Also, we’ve already heard how the new interchange and the converging lanes in Northop—. There are worries that that could have the impact of transferring problems just literally further along the road. What mitigating work has been done and will be done around Northop and Flint mountain? Has consideration been given to how the A55 resilience study that was going to—? Will that also form a part of this, because I know you’ve already responded to my colleague Mark Isherwood in terms of the possibility of a crawler lane? I think that should be given consideration as part of this, that this isn’t the be-all and end-all, there needs to be—. I think there are other problems along that route that need to be addressed.The Flintshire bridge is a key part of the proposals. Do the proposals for improving this bridge ensure it’s fit for purpose? I know it can often be closed as a result of high winds and it’s still known as the new bridge in the area, despite being nearly 20 years old, and some locals have nicknamed it ‘the bridge to nowhere’ because if you go along it, you’re hard-pressed, perhaps, to see one or two other cars going along it. I think it will been referred to, how you’ve got this—. It’s been there for a number of years now, but people still choose to go up the Aston Hill to come into north Wales. So, what guarantee could you give, if this route goes ahead, that people wouldn’t still travel along Aston Hill and that that wouldn’t remain congested, as it is?You referred to the village of Oakenholt in your statement. I know residents in Oakenholt have particular concerns with how the new road will affect the area. We’ve already seen substantial new housing developments in Oakenholt over the next few years. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you really be confident that the route as outlined will enhance Oakenholt and the surrounding area, and not do damage to the community?Just briefly, to finish, moving from road to rail, because I recognise your statement did cover plans to progress the north-east metro, which I welcome. We talk a lot about connecting Deeside industrial park, which is really important, as the cornerstone of the regional economy, but we really do need to make sure that other communities towards the west of Flintshire are not left out and are not let behind, and that they are connected as part of the north-east Wales metro proposals. You’ll be well aware that there’s currently only one train station in my constituency, in Flint. Access to public transport for a huge swathe of the population of Delyn means buses and, to be honest, at the moment they are either not that reliable or do not connect up. This metro for north-east Wales does have the potential to be a massive economic enabler, not just for the region, but for individuals to better access work opportunities, to get to Deeside industrial park. I know in my own events, my Future Flintshire event that I held earlier in the year, there was particular concern about how young people were able to access work at Deeside industrial park if they can’t afford a car, or if they have got a car, often the cost of insurance for younger people makes that prohibitive.I welcome the news to look at Shotton High Level, Shotton Low Level and the Deeside industrial park station, but could we, as part of the north-east Wales metro proposals, look at how we could actually develop stations further down the line to the west of Flint? I actually recently met with Holywell Town Council members, representatives from Network Rail and my MP colleague, David Hanson, to look at a potential site for a new station in the Greenfield Holywell area. Much of the structure actually is there—obviously it needs a little bit of work and enhancement—but it’s there from the old station. That station actually formed a key strategic point, not too far from the point of the Port of Mostyn, which links the advanced manufacturing sector of the north-east with the energy sector of the north-west, and this is where the A380 wings for the A380 Airbus go out or are shipped out to Toulouse. So, I would really urge serious consideration—and I’m happy to meet with you and officials to see how we can take this further—of a new station at what is being called Greenfield halt, or, actually, if we did do it, why not call it St Winefride’s halt to maximise on the heritage and tourist assets just on the doorstep of where that would be placed?Just to wrap up, we are seeing large-scale investment in the pipeline in our infrastructure in north-east Wales. There are big proposals on the table, proposals such as the metro, that would bring huge potential for our area. But, in closing, I really, really need to call on the Cabinet Secretary to listen and act on the ideas and the concerns of the people, communities and organisations of Flintshire. I’ll be working hard to make sure my constituents have a voice, going forward in this process. I strongly urge the Welsh Government to make sure that the process is as accessible as possible to all communities in Flintshire, not just Deeside, and actively involve people from the communities across the county.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Hannah Blythyn for her questions? I do recognise the need to ensure that the metro vision extends right across the entire region and to communities within the constituency of Delyn. I take the point regarding the title of the corridor proposal, and now that I’ve been able to announce that it is the red route that will be taken forward, I think we can revise the naming of the project to, perhaps, the north Wales corridor or the Flintshire corridor. I do think that businesses and the population of the region will welcome today’s announcement. The project announced £250 million of investment in north-east Wales, and is part of a £600 million investment across infrastructure in the region of north Wales—something that many businesses have called for time and again. I would hope that Members, whilst being sympathetic to their own constituents, would also consider that a regional, strategic approach to economic development and transport is of the utmost priority for north Wales.I am very, very sympathetic—I really do like the idea of a St Winefride’s stop or a Greenfield stop as part of the metro, and I’ll certainly be asking the steering group to consider that as a very real, potential project. I think that there is also potential to have smaller scale hubs in other towns within Delyn, including the historic market town of Mold and in Flint, to ensure that large towns and small villages are better connected to the larger employment hubs and to rail services as well.In terms of the community benefits that could stem from this project, clearly £0.25 billion is a very significant investment, and I would imagine that there will be huge potential for community schemes to draw down funding, direct, and in-kind assistance as well. Theatr Clwyd I am very keen to see invested in. It’s overdue a programme of modernisation and its capital project, I think, is very ambitious and has widespread support. So, I’d be more than happy to see that Theatr Clwyd is placed in a position where it is able to benefit significantly as a community benefit scheme. In terms of Oakenholt and Flint and other communities that are near to the red route, the local development plan will determine much of the land that is earmarked for domestic building. Flintshire County Council, as the planning authority, will also be responsible for ensuring that any development that takes place is proportionate and that the community is able to accommodate any additional homes. I do believe that communities such as Oakenholt have a very distinctive character and a strong identity, and I would not wish those to be diluted through the encroachment of other communities onto Oakenholt or, indeed, a significant expansion of that particular community. Likewise, the other communities in the area—Northop Hall, Northop and Flint—I think it’s essential that they retain their identities and their unique characteristics.The Member also asked about signage and how we will ensure that traffic that could use the new red route does use the new red route. It’s my intention to ensure that, as traffic comes off the M56 and on to the A494, there is ample signage in place to ensure that traffic wishing to access the A55 is able to be directed onto it.In terms of the design process that will now be followed, I am confident that, through our new Welsh transport appraisal guidance scheme, we’ll be able to ensure that the well-being of future generations Act is adhered to. I think, so far, the process that we’ve followed has indeed recognised the ways of working that are promoted by the Act, including the inclusive way that we’ve gone about speaking with residents, engaging with residents, and inviting comment from residents and businesses. Of the more than 2,500 responses to the consultation, approximately 1,800 were in favour of the red route. There is considerable support for this project, and, again, I’m confident that this will lead to an improvement in the competitiveness and the connectivity of north-east Wales.

Thank you. And then, finally, the Chair of the committee. But with a question only, please.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, I welcome the creation of the steering group you mentioned. Can you outline in a bit more detail how you’re looking to strengthen cross-border working with the Department for Transport, Transport for the North, and others to ensure that you are taking advantage of the UK Government’s investment in HS2 and high speed 3? Finally, while it’s right and proper that infrastructure in north Wales forges links with the north of England, it’s also important, of course, that infrastructure facilitates greater connectivity with mid Wales. You wouldn’t expect me to say anything different. I’d be interested to hear what your plans are to improve links between north and mid Wales, particularly in regard to how businesses can access and take advantage of developments in the north.

Ken Skates AC: Can I put on record my thanks to Members of Parliament in the Wrexham area, Clwyd South, and also across the border—I’ve met with Owen Paterson on a number of occasions—for pursuing a campaign to see the dualling of the Shrewsbury to Ruabon route? It is an ambitious campaign, but one that I think demonstrates the need and the appetite for improvements in north-south travel on a cross-border basis. We are also taking forward, at good speed, the Newtown bypass, which the Member is well aware of, again improving north-south travel. But, in addition to this, I’ve already announced the fund—the pinch points fund—that will address some major bottlenecks along the trunk road network, including at the Halton roundabout on the A483. I’m pleased that I’ve had initial scoping work back from officials, and it appears that we will be able to deliver upgrades at that particular point within this Assembly term. And, on a cross-border basis, I do think that the momentum that we’ve built up with Growth Track 360 and the taskforce has been immense and I don’t wish to lose that momentum. The steering group will have representatives from cross-border agencies, and I’m keen to ensure that the north Wales growth bid contains a significant proportion of transport projects to enable the region to be better connected and to align with the growth deal bid that is being constructed, and will be negotiated on, within the Cheshire and Warrington Local Enterprise Partnership area.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

5. 5. Statement: The Neurological Conditions Delivery Plan 2017-2020

The next item on our agenda is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport on the neurological conditions delivery plan of 2017-2020. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for health, Vaughan Gething, to introduce the statement.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. On 27 July this year, I published the updated neurological conditions delivery plan. This plan reaffirms our continued commitment to ensuring those affected by neurological conditions have timely access to care when they need it and as close to their homes as possible. The plan was first published in May 2014. It focuses on raising awareness of neurological conditions, ensuring quick diagnosis, providing fast and effective care, and working together across sectors to help people live with their condition. The plan also aims to improve the information available on neurological conditions and treatment, as well as help to target research into causes, treatments, and cures. The delivery plan sets out our expectations of all stakeholders and provides a framework for action by health boards, NHS trusts and partner organisations.There are more than 100,000 people in Wales affected with a long term neurological condition. Conditions range from—without an exhaustive list—cerebral palsy, muscular dystrophy, Parkinson’s, through to multiple sclerosis and epilepsy and others. Numerous other people suffer from short-term or infrequent neurological conditions.Good progress has been made since the original plan was published in 2014. In the last annual statement of progress, published this March, there was a reduction in the average time an individual spent in hospital, falling from 6.4 days in 2010-11 to 4.2 days in 2015-16. The length of stay following an elective admission has also reduced from 3.9 days to 2.2 days, and a similar reduction has been seen in emergency admissions, from 9.2 days to seven days.Along with positive improvements in the treatment and care of neurological patients, we have seen a substantial increase in the number of patients recruited into neurological health and care research in Wales clinical studies: 511 patients took part in 2015-16, compared to 300 patients in 2010-11.Neurological care represents the tenth biggest expenditure area for the NHS in Wales. Over the four years to 2015, this rose 65 per cent, up to £293.7 million. In terms of spend per head of population, that equates to £91.76 per person. The updated plan contains key actions, which build on the foundations of the previous plan and continue to drive forward the vision for improving services across Wales more effectively, at greater pace, and in conjunction with each health board’s local vision for their resident population. Actions include strongly encouraging health boards to talk and listen to their patients and stakeholders, and to strengthen their partnerships with local authorities and the third sector.The plan reaffirms the Welsh Government’s resolve to ensure people receive a faster diagnosis wherever possible. Actions in the plan require health boards and networks to take steps to raise awareness of neurological conditions at a primary care level, and to provide the right access and support to specialist assessments and tests. The plan also recognises the valuable role played by the third sector, who’ve come together under one umbrella as the Wales Neurological Alliance. The alliance is seeking to raise awareness among healthcare professionals, using funding secured from the neurological conditions implementation group.So, we are now in a place to move ahead with greater pace. The conditions implementation group provides national leadership and support to do so. That implementation group brings together all the health boards, the third sector, and the Welsh Government to work together collaboratively. That group has identified priorities for 2017-18, and these include developing a co-productive approach to increasing awareness of neurological conditions, delivering clear and consistent patient information, the consistent delivery of access to neurology services for patients of all ages throughout Wales, developing consistent and coherent neuro-rehabilitation services for patients of all ages, and developing and responding to both patient experience and outcome measures. These priorities continue to be supported by £1 million of funding each year. Together, the neurological conditions and the stroke implementation groups have continued to work together and combine their moneys for a joint project. For example, combined funding has been used to deliver a pan-Wales £1.2 million neurological rehabilitation improvement programme.In 2016, the implementation groups worked in partnership to develop patient-related experience measures, or PREMs, and patient-related outcome measures, or PROMs, for both stroke and neurological conditions in Wales. This programme aims to gain an insight into services from a patient perspective and use their real-life experience to help improve our services. By March of next year, the aim is for Wales to have PREMs and PROMs that can be administered, collected, and collated on a national level. These should help both to identify inequalities in health and care provision across Wales, to support the evaluation of service development, and demonstrate change over time.Patients are able to access the new treatment fund that I announced at the beginning of this year. We’ve built on the equitable system we have in place by ensuring the fund supports all new medicines that have been proven to have a good balance between cost and price charged to the NHS by the manufacturer. The fund underpins our evidence-based approach to the availability of new medicines, and supports faster access to the full range of new medicines coming through the appraisal pipeline.Through Health and Care Research Wales, the Welsh Government has invested £1.2 million in the Brain Repair and Intracranial Neurotherapeutics Unit, or BRAIN Unit, set up in May 2015 and led by Cardiff University. This unit is seeking to deliver novel cell, drug, and growth factor therapies to patients with currently untreatable neurological and neurodegenerative diseases, such as multiple sclerosis.We must make the most of our resources in Wales—not least the skill, dedication, and hard work of our clinical staff, service managers, and our third sector organisations. We want to create a more equal relationship between patient and healthcare professionals, enabling people to co-produce their treatment based on their values, goals, and circumstances.Whilst there are clear areas where progress has been made, often through collaboration between NHS Wales, the third sector, and other partners, I will not, of course, fail to acknowledge that there is still work to be done. The updated neurological conditions delivery plan recognises this and contains a set of actions to continue to build on this progress and ultimately to improve the services for those with a neurological condition, no matter where in Wales somebody lives. I’d like to take this opportunity to thank those involved in the progress to date and offer my continued support and encouragement to those responsible for taking this forward.

Mark Isherwood AC: All my questions have been raised with me by members of the Wales Neurological Alliance and the cross-party group on neurological conditions, which I chair. The revised neurological delivery plan acknowledges that national guidelines set out the Welsh Government’s expectation of effective care for people with a neurological condition, and the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence has published a set of recommendations for the NHS in England and Wales, allowing health boards and healthcare professionals to set what level of service they’re expected to provide for people living with multiple sclerosis. However, according to the Multiple Sclerosis Society Wales, the standard is not being met. What steps will, therefore, you take to ensure that local health boards provide the necessary baseline data that would afford a better understanding of MS treatments and services across Wales and enable the effective commissioning of services, and to ensure that the NICE quality standard for MS is implemented consistently across Wales?Motor neurone disease kills a third of people within a year, and more than half within two years of diagnosis, typically as a result of respiratory failure. The Motor Neurone Disease Association supports the publication of this neurological conditions delivery plan, but they ask the Welsh Government to ensure that local health boards make local delivery plans publicly available and that local, easily accessible neurological service user forums are established as a priority to engage in a co-productive dialogue—a term you used—and allow public scrutiny and monitoring of local delivery plans. They ask the Welsh Government to produce annual reports, or ensure that local health boards produce annual reports, demonstrating clear and robust evidence of progress against key actions in language that is easily understood by those affected by neurological conditions, and they ask for equity of consideration to be given to rare neurological conditions like MND, motor neurone disease, and to ensure that action plans and annual reports provide robust condition-specific evidence against outcome indicators and assurance measures. So, I would ask you to respond to the asks from the Motor Neurone Disease Association.In 2016, the implementation groups, you say in your statement, worked in partnership to develop patient-related experience measures and the patient-related outcome measures, or PREMs and PROMs. Neurophysiotherapists have pointed out that the key work of the cross-party group on neurological conditions has been done in highlighting the importance of rehabilitation services, and emphasised that a sustained focus on rehabilitation cannot be a one-off. They’re grateful that some of the new investment from the stroke and neurological delivery plans was directed at rehabilitation services, and they emphasised they have exceptional staff and skilled clinical experts, but want you to respond to their statement that they need to see continued development across Wales to retain and reward these staff. The physiotherapy profession is very keen to see outcome measurements that are meaningful to patients and service users, and they refer to the work to develop the PROMs and PREMs as a very important way forward where clinicians need to measure the right things to demonstrate outcomes. Again, how do you respond to their statement that, equally, patients and service users need to be able to provide feedback on the services they receive?Since the delivery plan started in 2014, the number of people living with dystonia in Wales has doubled to 5,000, and due to the demand on services for dystonia, especially Botox injections, there’s been no plan to make the treatment of dystonia sustainable in Wales. The Dystonia Society are therefore very concerned that continued cancellation of appointments in north and south Wales will lead patients and service users to seek deep brain stimulation surgery because of the worry of losing their jobs and their financial situations. How, therefore, do you respond to their recommendations that Botox clinics in north and south Wales must include a specialist dystonia physiotherapist in the clinic, that more awareness is needed locally, especially in GP surgeries, to bring down waiting times, that there’s a need for more training in ophthalmology and ENT regarding administering Botox injections, and a need for better holistic approaches, including psychological and emotional support? Then, finally, how would you respond to their concern that Wales is the only UK country not to have specialised consultants in dystonia, and the only place in the UK not to have specialised neurophysiotherapists? In 2016, the Wales cancer patient experience survey highlighted how more than a third of high-grade brain tumours are diagnosed through an emergency admission to hospital. Greater awareness of brain tumour signs and symptoms is, according to the Brain Tumour Charity, critical to driving earlier diagnosis and improving patient outcomes. Therefore, can the Minister ensure that awareness-raising of brain tumours is prioritised in the implementation of this delivery plan?Along with paediatricians, Bobath Wales, the specialist centre for children with cerebral palsy, are trying to establish a register for children in Wales who have cerebral palsy. What support for this is the Welsh Government able to provide? I’ll conclude by referring to a presentation to the last north Wales meeting of the cross-party group on neurological conditions on 28 July, a presentation by the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee. How do you respond to their statement in relation to provision of services for neurological patients with mental health problems that they’d only actually had two referrals from north Wales, and that they were concerned about where patients in north Wales with those dual diagnostic conditions were going? They expressed concern that few recommendations of successive reviews have actually been implemented, and they particularly highlighted the development of a north Wales neurorehabilitation service and the integration of the neuroradiology services across south Wales. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the large number of questions. I’ll try to run through a number of them, but I’ll be happy, if there are any that I’ve missed in the limited time available, to respond to correspondence directly from the alliance themselves, who of course I meet twice a year. On your point abut NICE guidance, in particular about meeting standards on multiple sclerosis, of course we want our services to improve. What I think is really important in having a plan and having the reports is to recognise the progress we’ve made, but also, as I said, recognising what more we need to do. So, we don’t try and varnish where we are. We try and be upfront about the fact that we want to see further improvement. These are relatively rare conditions. Motor neurone disease, which you mentioned, and which Nick Ramsay regularly mentions in the Chamber as well, is a particularly rare condition. So, it’s covered by both the neurological conditions plan but also the rare diseases plan as well. I set that out, in fact, in the correspondence I sent to all Members in August, in response to questions and letters from Nick Ramsay and others. So, in terms of where we’re getting about feedback and understanding whether we’re actually meeting our services, that’s part of the reason why the PROMs and PREMs work really matters—to understand what matters to the person and their family, what matters to them, and whether the experience of their care and treatment and the outcomes that matter to them are really being achieved and delivered. It’s really important to me that we achieve something that is understandable across the country and isn’t a tick-box exercise, but really helps us to understand what we’re currently delivering and where we need to improve, and then, of course, to understand whether we’re actually delivering that in practice. That will matter to people with MS, as well as to people with motor neurone disease and a range of the other areas that you’ve covered as well. I do take seriously the point about the need to get evidence of progress on a local basis, but in language that is easy to understand. We recognise, in and around those people in the health service—including, if you like, the expert patients and advocates—that we can easily use language that is exclusionary and doesn’t make it easy for people to understand what we’re trying to get over and across. I think that is something the health service needs to guard against, so I take that on board and that’s something that I will look at.On neurophysiotherapy and rehab services generally, I think the points you made, with respect, were covered in the statement, and not just the reference to PROMs in PREMs, but also the investment—the significant investment—by both the stroke implementation group and the neurological conditions group as well, recognising their shared interests in both raising awareness and improving the quality of that rehab service.On dystonia, I had an opportunity to meet a group of dystonia patients previously, with Vikki Howells in her office in Cynon Valley, so I do recognise there are real concerns about the ability of our services both to have the capacity to deliver timely care, but also other services that take place. So, the issues that you raise have already been raised with me by Vikki and her constituents. We’ve arranged for contact to take place with Cardiff and Vale health board, which actually provides the service that her constituents would access. Again, I take on board the point about awareness in local healthcare services—GPs and others—but also wanting to improve specialist services around those that are not just Botox clinics, but, as you say, physiotherapy as well. On the points about cerebral palsy, I think that’s something I need to look at in terms of understating the lower number of referrals in and how we actually make sure that the health service properly understands both the need that exists in north Wales and how appropriately we’re responding to and managing that in the community.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much for that update. I have four questions stemming from today’s statement. The first relates to expenditure. We heard in the statement that there was an increase of 65 per cent in expenditure on neurological conditions over the four years up to 2015. I wonder whether it would be possible to have an explanation for that particular trend, because it appears to be too much of an increase to have been driven by demographic factors alone.In terms of PREMs and PROMs and the intention to develop a system that can bring outcomes that can be compared across health boards in Wales, I do welcome that. But, what consideration has been given to enable us to benchmark also against the other health services across the United Kingdom?Thirdly, and speaking of that comparison with other countries, the Wales Neurological Alliance has said that Wales is falling behind in terms of waiting times for assessment. The statement that we have heard acknowledges that early diagnosis is vital, but what investment can you point towards that shows that the Government is trying to ensure that diagnosis does happen earlier?Finally, ensuring that we do have a sufficient number of specialist nurses is vital for the care that is provided to patients. So, what resources are being provided to help to increase the appeal of working as a neurological nurse as a career, and to ensure that the support is available to enable nurses to pursue that particular career path?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for those questions. On your point about the increase in funding, we recognised that it’s a greater priority for us. Having the conditions plan itself has been a focus for attention. I think it’s a fact that reflects we’re better meeting the needs of people within the public, but also the progress in developing treatment. So, I don’t think there’s any suspicion about it, it’s really about how we make best use of that as well. I think it’s a good thing. We can point at the fact that we’re spending more on these particular conditions that affect a relatively wide range of people and can have a significant impact on them as well.On your point about PROMs and PREMs and comparison with the other three nations of the UK, this is one of the challenges, isn’t it? Because if we develop bespoke measures in Wales that meet the needs of people here in Wales and you ask those people, ‘What matters to you, how do we record that properly, about your experience and your outcomes, as that helps us to drive where we are?’, the challenge will be that there may be different statements made or a different level of willingness to do so in other nations. I’m certainly not going to try and speak for Jeremy Hunt on these issues, but I would not expect that he would be interested in developing a series of measures that properly take account of the experiences and desired outcomes for Welsh patients. I’m interested in doing the right thing here. I’d like to have a sensible conversation. Rather than with politicians, it’s probably easier across the service for patients, third sector groups and clinicians to have a conversation about the sort of measures and experiences that matter and whether there is a way to have something that allows you some form of comparison across the other UK nations. But I have to say, from my own point of view, whilst it would be desirable to do that, it isn’t my first point of interest in this work. My first point of interest is how do we make sure that we have a service that is properly responsive to what matters to the citizen in their experience and their outcomes, which helps to drive service improvement, service planning and delivery. On investment and earlier diagnosis, this partly goes into our understanding of awareness, because awareness isn’t just for the general population, it is actually about healthcare professionals being able to spot earlier and refer people into the right part of a treatment and care pathway. So, that’s part of what we set out in terms of the priorities for the implementation group in the years ahead, and the challenge will be, given the basket of conditions we’re talking about, that some of that will vary from one condition to another. When we talk about someone, say, with cerebral palsy, well, that’s easier to understand in terms of how you diagnose than, say, for example, some of our more progressive conditions as well. So, there’s a challenge in understanding how we do all of that. So, rather than giving a one-size-fits-all, it’s really about how we invest in that wider picture. And on your final point on nurses particularly—. And I’m pleased that you’re talking about a healthcare profession that is more than medicine, because we need to understand, in lots of the improvement that we see happening, that the role of nurses and specialist nurses in particular is really important in that, and that’s one of the things that we ought to try and highlight in the opportunities that exist within our system. It’s also part of when we look at, ‘What is the offer to encourage people to come in and to stay here in Wales?’—both people who are local and those who may want to move to come here as well. Interestingly, as I’ve been going around and about listening to healthcare staff, you do see a range of senior nurses who move for jobs and opportunities. I’ve met quite a few people who have positively moved from the system in England to either come to Wales or to come back to Wales as well. But I actually think the greater gain to be made is how we recruit, retain and train our own. Because many, many people going into nursing are local. The typical age, as you will know, of a nurse trainee going into the undergraduate programme is in the late twenties. These are mostly people who have responsibilities and ties and who are unlikely to be particularly mobile in the way that, for example—. Training people for medicine is one of our challenges. Getting people who are undergraduate and then keeping them is more difficult, rather than someone who’s in their late twenties. So, I’m particularly interested in seeing the success we’ll have with our broad ‘Train. Work. Live.’ campaign for nurses, to understand how successful we have been, and I think we’ll directly benefit patients in these areas, but also our staff and the opportunities we want to give them as well.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. Neurological conditions affect tens of thousands of people in Wales and this latest delivery plan will hopefully build upon the improvements made to the services designed to assist those people. While a number of neurological conditions present at birth, a large number can present at any time in life. It is therefore important that we raise awareness of these conditions, not only among the professionals, but also amongst the general public, as recognising the signs early will lead to earlier diagnosis and treatment. I welcome the emphasis the Welsh Government is placing upon improving awareness in this delivery plan. As the plan highlights, many neurological conditions have symptoms that can be mistaken for more common conditions, leading to misdiagnosis. Training primary care staff and healthcare teams to recognise the signs of neurological conditions will hopefully reduce the number of delayed or misdiagnosed patients.Cabinet Secretary, the key actions for timely diagnosis require health boards to provide GPs with timely and direct access to CT scans. I very much welcome this move, but am concerned that we are not making the best use of diagnostic equipment. In many areas, CT scanners are not utilised 24/7. What is your Government doing to ensure that we have sufficient diagnostic staff to make use of our scanners at evenings and weekends? One of the central pillars of the new delivery plan is ensuring fast, effective, safe care and rehabilitation. We have made a lot of progress in this area, particularly when it comes to approving new medicines for the treatment of neurological conditions, but we are taking too long in getting that treatment to patients. For example, MS patients had to wait nearly two years after Sativex was approved before they could receive it as the clinics needed to administer the drugs were not available. Many of the new treatments in the pipeline for neurological conditions require monitoring and have to be administered in an outpatient clinic. In Cardiff, there is a six-week waiting list for drug infusions. Cabinet Secretary, what can your Government do to ensure that LHBs plan for the sufficient day beds needed to administer drugs, so there is no delay between approval by NICE or AWMSG and the treatment being available to patients?Rehabilitation is vital to ensure that patients with neurological conditions—emergency admissions to hospital—. Unfortunately, waiting times for neurology rehabilitation are far too long. Cabinet Secretary, what is your Government doing to reduce waiting times for neuro rehab in Wales?I fully support the direction you are taking with this latest plan, and look forward to working with you to ensure that we improve the outcomes for Welsh patients suffering with neurological conditions. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for those questions. As you highlight, and as I said in my statement, there are more than 100,000 people in Wales affected by this group of conditions. On top of that, of course, there are their families and carers; there will be an impact on their lives too. I’ll just try and run through your questions. I think with the last point, I certainly tried to answer the point about improving neuro rehab, both in my statement but also in response to Mark Isherwood’s list of questions. On the broader point about treatment delays from approval to provision, there is always something about how you plan to have a treatment provided once it’s gone through the appraisal process. We’re talking here about medicines rather than other forms of treatment. And there’s something also here about what we’re trying to improve more generally in the way that we manage the system in Wales. It’s why I’ve had very constructive conversations with the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry about how this works, and about having an earlier conversation as they have drugs in development and at what point the service will be aware of what they’re doing and what is likely to come up. Because part of the challenge in the past about having some of the variants in treatment in medicines being approved to being available has been the ability to plan for that service, to change different parts of the service itself. It wasn’t just as simple as dropping in a new medicine onto the scripts available, but actually what you need to plan around that as well. That did account for some of the delays in Sativex being available. And, again, I wrote to Members in March to outline where we were, and I’ve had follow-up correspondence from the Multiple Sclerosis Society in Wales as well, which has been helpful, I think, to get to a point where we do now have genuine nationwide provision. There are particular challenges about having that whole pathway set up in south Wales that I think have been resolved, and if not the offer has been made for the MS Society to meet with the chair of Cardiff and Vale health board to run through any outstanding issues. I think it’s important that we recognise and to have an open door to understand what we can do to improve, but in north Wales there are particular challenges where people are going into the system in north-west England, where some people were not being prescribed Sativex by clinicians based in England, even though it was available for them as patients who were resident in Wales. That highlights the fact that this is an area where we’ve made more progress than other UK nations. We’re still the only UK nation to regularly make Sativex available within the United Kingdom. On your point about the best use of diagnostic equipment, I think we need to think properly about how we plan and deliver the service, because we have the workforce that we have as well as the equipment. And, actually, we’ll need a workforce to be able to staff that equipment during use, and I need to be persuaded whether we do need more workforce available at different points in the day, and to make sure that equipment is available 24/7. Some of that depends on whether somebody is having an elective or an emergency admission, but, actually, I think that’s a proper case of workforce planning and not just having more equipment. We need to think about how we make best use of our capacity and ability across the system. But there is something there about local healthcare that, again, I think I tried to highlight in answer to other questions about how we equip and support people within our local health service, both to intervene and provide treatment and care when they could and should, as well as to diagnose whether these conditions are there and to understand how that treatment is progressing.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I’d like to focus my contribution today on issues relating to dystonia, which is the third most common neurological condition in Wales but an issue where public awareness is generally low. And I’d like to thank you for coming to my constituency and meeting with constituents of mine who are members of the south Wales dystonia support group, and listening to their concerns around Botox treatment. You’ll be pleased to know that, since then, they’ve reported to me an improvement within that service, although I do agree with some of the comments that Mark Isherwood has also raised. So, without repeating those comments, my question to you is simply: with cases of dystonia being on the increase, how can the Welsh Government integrate the promotion of a better understanding of the condition into its delivery plan for neurological conditions?

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question and the focus point there on, as you say, the third most common neurological condition, and that is part of what we expect to see moving forward with this plan, because you can’t say you want a plan for an improvement in these services if you then ignore the third most common condition. I am pleased to hear directly from you that the meeting that we’ve had has made a difference for that group of patients, because I do recognise that the service was not in the place where we would want it to be, and the focus and the attention we brought with the chair of the health board and the leader from the health board—I’m pleased to see that’s making a difference. And the challenge now that this plan period covers is how we make that generally sustainable, and I think the continuous interest from Members such as you will ensure that this is a condition that isn’t going to slip off the agenda for our health boards.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

6. 6. Statement: Energy

The next item on our agenda is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs on energy. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make the statement—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Presiding Officer. Last December, I set out my priorities in relation to energy. And, today, I want to focus on accelerating the transition of the energy system in Wales, particularly through the increased deployment of renewable energy. Our energy system has undergone dramatic changes in recent years, and there is further transformational change to come. The Paris agreement is gaining momentum and, with it, a clear commitment to decarbonise economies and energy systems across the globe. Wales must compete in global low-carbon markets, particularly now we face a future outside the EU, and the UK Government is aiming to phase out unabated coal by 2025. The ability to meet our needs from clean energy is, therefore, part of the foundation for delivering the future set out in our new national strategy, ‘Prosperity for All’. In parallel with the need to decarbonise, the economic case for renewables continues to strengthen, with increased deployment of renewables lowering costs, as confirmed by the recent contracts for difference auction. We’ve seen significant progress in Wales, with the Government in 2005 setting a target of generating 7 TWh of renewable energy every year by 2020.The UK Committee on Climate Change reported earlier this year that we are on track to deliver this ambitious target. Electricity generation from renewables in Wales has trebled since 2010. Two projects that have recently become operational help to symbolise the change taking place. Pen y Cymoedd wind farm, which the First Minister will be opening later this week, is the largest onshore wind project in England and Wales. Vattenfall has supported and created more 1,000 jobs in Wales and the project delivers £1.8 million annually into a community benefit fund. On a much smaller, community scale, we have Awel Aman Tawe’s wind development. It is wholly community owned, meaning all its profits are kept within the Aman valley and their shareholders. We need many more such projects at all scales and technologies to transform our energy system, play our part in tackling climate change, deliver benefits for Wales and address likely increases in electricity needs as we use more electricity for transport and heating. Other low-carbon energy sources will also be important, with Wylfa Newydd representing the largest private sector investment in Wales in a generation.The UK Government has a critical role to play in keeping this momentum going. However, I am determined to drive change using the levers we have here in Wales. This is why I am today announcing targets to focus action across Wales and capture the benefits for Wales. We have worked with expert organisations to pull together a solid and robust evidence base. We held a successful event in July, involving experts as well as those with an interest in the issue to help inform our thinking.Firstly, I’m setting a target of Wales generating 70 per cent of its electricity consumption from renewable energy by 2030. The latest data show that, in 2015, we generated 32 per cent of electricity consumption in Wales from renewable energy. Secondly, I am setting a target for 1 GW of renewable electricity capacity in Wales to be locally owned by 2030. In 2014, 330 MW of renewable electricity capacity in Wales was locally owned.Finally, by 2020, I expect new renewable energy projects to have at least an element of local ownership. I will be issuing a call for evidence on the issue, however my expectation is for new projects to involve local people and provide benefits to Wales, as well as to external shareholders. I believe these are stretching but realistic targets that will help us to decarbonise our energy system, reduce long-term costs and deliver greater benefits to Wales. I am clear we need to take action to support delivery of these targets. Firstly, in this increasingly complex world, we need to provide more direction on certain aspects of our energy policy, particularly for those making difficult decisions in planning and permitting. I will be considering the need for energy alongside the other ways we use land. This will have implications across my portfolio for how we manage our natural resources. We’ve already seen some excellent work with local ownership. I’ve agreed core funding for Community Energy Wales to enable them to work with developers on behalf of communities in Wales, looking at how we secure greater local involvement from the design stage onwards. I will also be focusing on heat. Though the 70 per cent target does not include heat, the potential future impact of electrifying heat is significant for both demand and supply elements of the target. The UK Committee on Climate Change has recommended we provide clearer policy on heat for Wales and I will be taking this forward.Secondly, we will work collectively to ensure our grid infrastructure enables a low-carbon model of electricity generation. The electricity and gas grid we need for the future will look very different to what we have now. The right flexible and affordable grid infrastructure is a fundamental enabler to connect the new generation that Wales needs for a prosperous low-carbon future. I will be working closely with the regulator, electricity grid operators, academics, innovators and developers to identify cost-effective ways of ensuring we have a fit-for-purpose grid.Thirdly, the targets I am announcing today have implications for our planning system. We have made significant progress in ensuring we have a streamlined yet robust planning system in place, for example by establishing the development of a national significance regime. I will shortly be consulting on amending permitted development rights for rooftop solar and small-scale, low-risk hydro projects. Alongside this, we’re working on the national development framework, which will be an all-Wales development plan and will reflect the policies of the Welsh Government.Furthermore, we will keep our national planning policy under review so that it continues to support delivery of our energy ambitions. I will be shortly consulting on the national marine plan, which will set the context for the offshore renewable sector. I’m also looking to the UK Government to deliver on areas that are not devolved to Wales. The UK has invested over £9 billion in developing the renewables sector. Costs have successfully been driven down, however the rapid changes of UK Government policy have decimated large parts of the renewable sector, with developments potentially valuable to Wales stopped in their tracks by UK Ministers. The bulk of UK Government renewables investment is now going to offshore wind projects outside Wales. This investment is paid for by Welsh bill payers, amongst others. There is a need for the bulk of energy supply to come from the most affordable technologies if the costs are to be found from energy bills. These technologies therefore need a route to market if we are to meet our ambitious targets and deliver the most benefit to Welsh bill payers. That is why I have called repeatedly on UK Government to stop the ideological exclusion of onshore wind and solar from the CFD process. This is not simply a Welsh Government view. I am working with some of my Brexit ministerial round table participants to build a real and balanced consensus on what will best meet Wales’s needs.It is also important to support emerging and innovative technologies such as wave and tidal, which the current CFD auction rounds singularly fail to do. Recent evidence of the falling costs of offshore wind demonstrate what similar support could do for other emerging sectors. Welsh Government is doing its share. We’ve made around one hundred million €100m of EU structural funds available for investment in marine energy. The SPECIFIC initiative is taking ideas from thoughts through to market-ready technologies: leading-edge work based here in Wales.However, we do not have either the levers or the funds to do everything. We do need a mature debate in the UK about how to structure both support for research, development and innovation, bringing forward to market the technologies of the future at the same time as we ensure the bulk of our energy needs are delivered from affordable, low-carbon sources.We are already capturing value from energy development in Wales. Welsh Government is a statutory consultee in the planning process for the Wylfa Newydd project and we are working with UK Government and Horizon Nuclear Power to ensure the developing plans work for Wales and that this multibillion pound project provides a positive and lasting legacy to Wales. On Swansea bay tidal lagoon, we continue to press the UK Government for clarity on support and a response to the Hendry review. I will continue to build on the co-ordinated and coherent direction that I set out last December and will provide a further update on other aspects of that statement, including a focus on energy efficiency, in December this year. Our key priority remains to deliver a prosperous and secure, low-carbon Wales.

David Melding AC: There are many strands to this statement and I will not test your patience, Llywydd, by going through all of them, but I do want to start by saying there’s a broad range of political consensus here in the shift to renewables and to decarbonise our energy sector. So, in that tone I offer these comments and questions.I think the Cabinet Secretary is right to say we need transformational change—I think that’s what the public also demand now—and you have noted that we’ve made some fairly rapid progress recently, and electricity generated from renewables has trebled since 2010, and in 2012-13 alone it increased by 9 per cent. Obviously, that does indicate that we should raise our sights and set very big ambitions. So, I think it is appropriate to compare what we are planning to do with the Scottish experience. Just as a mark, there are differences, and there are different approaches, no doubt, appropriate. But your target of 70 per cent of electricity consumption from renewables by 2030—it’s currently 32 per cent, so that’s a little over double in 15 years—is that the pace that we think is achievable now? But the target in Scotland is 100 per cent by 2020. It’s currently at 60 per cent. They’re already far advanced of us. So, I think the basic question is: is this transformation enough, and do we need to push for even more change? Particularly relating to the Scottish target of 100 per cent, when do you think you might, or a future Government might, be able to match this, given the action you intend to take as Minister in setting us on that path?I think everyone would welcome the move to more community ownership in whole or part, but I would like some details on the consultation fairly soon. When is it going to start? If you’re hoping to see these advances by 2020, we need to get a move on. So, I think at some point soon you will need to make that clear.There is no target for heat, despite your reference in the statement, and as you note, we have been urged by the UK Committee on Climate Change to look at this area of policy. So, when are you going to do that? Scotland does have a target, so, again, I think that needs to be borne in mind.You’re right to look at the potential of microgeneration. I think that’s going to grow in importance. It also involves people, and they can be part of the solution in a very direct way—so rooftop solar and small-scale hydro are really important. They’re rapidly changing technologies, particularly solar, and becoming ever more viable. So, I think that is important.Finally, I think there are great gains for Wales from wave and tidal that are yet to be captured, and we all support the Welsh Government in pushing for the Swansea tidal lagoon, and the Welsh Conservative group here has very strongly expressed its support and continues to do so through all channels available to us. Generally, investment in innovation and research in the marine sector is important, so publishing your marine plan needs to be urgently completed, because, as you said, it sets the context for offshore and nearshore projects. Here, we really do have potential to become a world leader, and that should be our ambition.You said lots of things about land use and planning, which I will take another opportunity to follow up and scrutinise you on. We would welcome even higher targets and more ambition. But, as a start, we welcome that this is, at least, beginning down the road we need to travel.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank David Melding for welcoming the statement and also for his questions. I was very clear to officials that I wanted ambitious, but achievable targets. I hear what you say about Scotland, and I obviously realise they do have a target of 1 GW of locally owned generation, for instance, by 2020, and our target is 2030. But I don’t think you can compare, and I think you alluded to that. You can’t directly compare Scotland with us: they’ve got a larger land area; they’ve got a greater renewable energy resource than we do in Wales. But I think it is right that we do have these very ambitious targets to ensure that that transformational change speeds up now. I think the Paris agreement really has focused everybody’s minds. I know, ahead of Conference of the Parties 23 in Bonn, which is being held in November, energy, and renewable energy, is going to be one of the main points of discussion.You referred to the community ownership, and we have been supporting the community renewable energy sector for several years now. I think it started back in 2010, but, again, we need to continue to do that, but we need to up our game. I do think in the discussions that I’ve had with commercial developers, for instance, that they really welcome the opportunity of taking forward new projects in partnership with local communities. So, I will be consulting, I hope to do so before the end of this year, to start that process.You referred to heat not being part of our target, and I mentioned in my opening remarks that we’ve worked with expert organisations to develop our thinking around the energy targets. The UK Committee on Climate Change has peer reviewed our evidence paper and are very broadly content with our approach. It was from those discussions that it was decided that the target shouldn’t have heat in it. But, obviously, as we look at transport particularly using more electricity, and heat is the main user of electricity in Wales, we do need to make sure that our policy is correct. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, I will be driving that forward.In relation to tidal power, it is imperative we know what the UK Government are going to do on Hendry. I’m not referring to any specific project, because, obviously, I have planning responsibilities also. But, I constantly write to the UK Government, and I keep getting responses saying, ‘In due course,’ which means nothing to me. Hendry reported in January. I last wrote to Richard Harrington who, since the election, is the Minister responsible, a month ago—I’m still awaiting a reply—asking for a timeline, because I think it’s really important that we know where the UK Government are coming from on this. You heard the First Minister say in questions today that he’s very concerned that it’s not now going ahead, but I do want to assure Members that I am pressing the UK Government, and any help that anybody can give me from the benches opposite would be very much appreciated.

Simon Thomas AC: May I welcome today’s statement, in general terms, by the Cabinet Secretary because it has put more meat on the bones from her statement back in December of last year? Certainly, we can now see specific figures and targets in terms of renewables, and specifically renewable electricity. Just to give some context here, we have just had the best summer ever in terms of renewable energy throughout the whole of the UK. Between 21 June and 22 September, 52 per cent of the electricity consumed throughout the UK came from renewable and low-carbon sources, and 24 per cent came specifically from purely renewable sources. So, the increase is very substantial indeed, and the impact is very positive too. Four years ago, in the summer of 2014, 491g of carbon dioxide per kilowatt hour were produced. Now, this year, that had been more than halved—or more than halved, I should say—to 216g. So, it’s a positive impact in terms of climate change and in the carbon dioxide emitted. That’s the context in which the Minister makes her statement.May I start with the figures and the targets that were announced today? Plaid Cymru, in 2016, stood on a manifesto of producing 100 per cent of electricity from renewable sources by 2035. Today, we see a target of 70 per cent by 2030. Now, 70 per cent isn’t 100 per cent and it falls short of the target that we hoped to achieve within five years of that date, but it is an improvement, and we now have a figure. We can now scrutinise the Government, but also assist the Government, because I want to be in a position in Plaid Cymru to support these things and to encourage Government to do more wherever possible. So, I very much hope that she will keep that figure under review and will take the opportunity, as has happened in Scotland, to enhance the target if necessary or if possible, so that we can move this process apace. She will recall that we have seen a significant price drop in terms of wind energy over the last year or two, and solar over the past five years, which means that perhaps even more financial efficiencies can be made as we develop this further.The second thing that she mentioned, which I warmly welcome, is this principle of community ownership. I very much hope that we will see that delivered. In my view, much of the opposition that we see to renewable energy development sometimes emerges from the fact that people feel that it has been done to them, rather than them being part of the project from the very outset, and community ownership is of huge assistance in getting over that problem. There are some people who will oppose for opposition’s sake, of course, but it certainly helps in disseminating information and support. I’m disappointed that the Cabinet Secretary hasn’t decided to adopt one of our ideas, namely the concept of an independent energy company for Wales—something such as ‘Ynni Cymru’ or ‘Energy Wales’—as something that could bridge the gap between the community, the Government and the commercial side of things, as a vehicle that could take ownership of some of these developments on behalf of the local community. What I’m asking, therefore, is, as there is a consultation on community ownership, has the door been closed entirely on this concept of an energy company for Wales, or is that something that could be discussed again in the consultation on ownership?The third point that I wanted to mention is the issues of the grid. Unless we see significant improvements—and not just improvements, but a transformation of the grid—then we won’t be able to achieve some of the targets and the vision outlined in the statement. I welcome the fact that the Government wishes to work with the owners of the grid and those responsible for the national grid, but I also recall that the Government itself—. The statement blames the Westminster Government from time to time, but this Government was also responsible for preventing grid developments in mid Wales because the Government dragged its feet and got cold feet because so many people had opposed those improvements. That certainly stopped two or three onshore wind energy proposals that would have been developed if it weren’t for that and would have contributed significantly to the targets that we currently have. So, I very much hope that the Cabinet Secretary, on this occasion, will—well, not oppose—but will be willing to be robust and innovative in the face of any opposition to making proper improvements to the grid.I regret that there are no specific targets for heat either. I hear what the Government has had to say on that. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm that it is her intention to develop targets in due time for the heat system, and also for transportation? The decarbonisation of transport is exceptionally important in the bigger picture. It means, in my view, that we need to invest in infrastructure for electric vehicles. We’ve heard some discussion on that already this afternoon, but I would like to see the Government being more innovative still in investing in our infrastructure for electric vehicles, and I would like to hear her comments on developing targets on infrastructure in that regard.Os caf i orffen—llawer o gwestiynau, llawer o bwyntiau, yn y datganiad hwn, os caf ddweud hynny.Ond ychydig o bwyntiau terfynol, yn gyflym iawn: croesawaf y ffaith y bydd rhagdybiaeth datblygu a ganiateir o blaid solar pen tŷ a dŵr.Hoffwn iddi ystyried a ddylid ymestyn hyn i ddatblygiadau gwynt ar y fferm, ac rwy'n siarad yn benodol am dyrbinau gwynt sy'n uniongyrchol gysylltiedig â gweithgareddau fferm, nid yn unig ar gyfer gwerthu trydan masnachol, oherwydd gellir ymdrin â hynny mewn ffordd wahanol.Ond rwy'n credu y byddai yn dderbyniol iawn, ar ôl Brexit, i lawer o ffermwyr yng Nghymru pe bai dull datblygu a ganiateir i ddatblygu gwynt ar y fferm, a chredaf y byddai'n helpu llawer o ffermwyr i wneud eu busnesau yn fwy hyfyw.Rwy’n gorffen gyda'r pwynt olaf yr ydym wedi bod yn ei drafod ynghylch yr angen am y morlyn llanw ym Mae Abertawe fel arloeswr, fel y nodwyd yn glir yn adolygiad Hendry.Rydw i'n un o'r buddsoddwyr cymunedol yno, ynghyd â channoedd o bobl leol, sydd am weld hyn yn cael ei wneud. Rydyn ni’n credu y gall ynni adnewyddadwy nid yn unig ddigwydd a bod yn rhan o'n cymysgedd ynni yng Nghymru, ond gallwn fod yn arwain y byd, yn enwedig yng ngoleuni ynni'r llanw. Rwy'n croesawu'n fawr yr hyn sydd eisoes wedi'i gyhoeddi ar gyfer Ynys Môn a Sir Benfro o ran meysydd ynni'r llanw i'w datblygu. Ond mae'r morlyn ynddo'i hun yn brosiect sy’n barod i fynd, ac rwy’n annog y Llywodraeth hon a Llywodraeth San Steffan i roi'r golau gwyrdd iddo.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Simon Thomas for a very long list of questions, which I will endeavour to cover. Again, you raised a similar point to David Melding about the 100 per cent target. I look very carefully at targets and, as I say, we did take expert advice, but I don’t think the grid would support a 100 per cent target at the moment. I don’t think the current UK Government energy market mechanisms would support that at the moment. We are connected to a global energy system, and I just don’t think at the current time it would be the right thing to do. But it’s like any target—and I hear what you say about Plaid Cymru’s target was for 100 per cent by 2035. Well, who knows? From 2030 to 2035, we could make it. It’s like our recycling targets: we’re there already, we’re there two years beforehand, so I’m looking at whether we should be changing that target. So, obviously, we can certainly keep it under review.You referred to the work that we’re doing with community energy and local ownership. We’ve got over 330 MW of renewable generation capacity owned by our communities and locally-owned organisations. So, that’s a significant amount, and it’s a good amount to build on. You’ll be aware that our local energy service currently works closely with 34 different groups across Wales at the current time, and we are supporting a further two at the moment, which are due to be completed by the end of this year. I think that will take us up, then, to about 17. So, as I say, I will be consulting later in the year.Simon Thomas referred to the possibility of an energy company for Wales, which was an idea that you and I met over, and we certainly took it forward. I did make a written statement last month, indicating that we do not believe a strong enough case was made for establishing an umbrella supply company for Wales. Again, we collected evidence and views about the potential for energy services companies. We held a series of consultations back in March, and that really created a very clear consensus, I think, around the risks and the challenges and the tensions that would be inherent if we did set up and run an energy supply company. I think many people—and I know I’ve discussed this with Simon—felt that the Government had a sort of trusted neutral voice, if you like, and that could be lost if we then did participate in the market. So, the conclusion was that the risks of creating a Welsh Government supply company could heavily outweigh the potential benefits. Have we closed the door? No, of course not. We will always listen to views. So, maybe it is something that we consider looking at, at a future date.You raised grid flexibility. Clearly, we need a modern, efficient, reliable energy infrastructure, and that has to be alongside a very robust and fit-for-purpose grid, and that grid has to enable our low-carbon energy objectives to be delivered. So, we are engaging with National Grid—I’ve met National Grid; I know the First Minister’s met the chief executive of National Grid—to make sure that their delivery plans include a grid that’s absolutely fit for purpose for what we want to do in Wales.You mentioned about heat, and I think I gave the reasons why we didn’t choose to include heat. But you’re right; we need to have that development of that policy forward. It’s so important if we are going to reach our decarbonisation targets. So, that will be policy that we are developing.The point you mentioned about onshore wind on farms—I have seen a couple of farms where farmers have diversified already. But you’re quite right; Brexit has, I think, made diversification that much more of an issue being discussed by farmers, and I think we will see more of that going forward.In relation to the Hendry review, you will have heard my earlier answer to David Melding. It’s very important we get a response as quickly as possible. They really are dragging their heels now, and we do need to know what they’re doing. But, certainly, we remain supportive of that principle, but it’s for UK Government to trigger the green light, not us.And you mentioned the funding that Ken Skates announced, I think it was yesterday, on Anglesey, which I agree is very welcome.

Neil Hamilton AC: It’s always a pleasure to listen to the Cabinet Secretary, but I’m afraid I can’t be quite so complimentary about the contents of the statement itself. I’m going to introduce a certain diversity into the proceedings this afternoon, as might be expected. I want to question the assumptions upon which the statement is made. I’ve got three points to make altogether.First of all, the statement says that the Paris agreement is gaining momentum and there’s a clear commitment to decarbonise economies and energy systems across the globe. But I’m afraid all the evidence is the opposite. China and India between them emit more than a third of the world’s carbon dioxide. China is planning to double its output of carbon dioxide in the next 15 years, and India to triple it. That’s one reason why President Trump of the United States, which also emits 15 per cent of the world’s carbon dioxide, wants to resile from the Paris accords altogether, because he says that he was elected to represent the citizens of Pittsburgh, not Paris. And what motivates him is that there is a let-out clause in the Paris agreement itself, article 4(7), which says: ‘The extent to which developing country Parties will effectively implement their commitments under the Convention…will take fully into account that economic and social development and poverty eradication are the first and overriding priorities of the developing country Parties.’That is why, although China and India have signed up in principle to the fundamental theories behind the climate change convention, they’re not actually going to contribute anything in practical terms to its realisation. Even in Germany, which fully signed up to anti-global warming policies, carbon dioxide emissions have risen in each of the last eight years, including the present one. So, I’m afraid the world is not going in the direction that the Cabinet Secretary assumes.Secondly, there is an assumption here that the economic case for renewables continues to strengthen and that renewables are lower in costs, as confirmed by the recent contracts for difference auction. Well, I’m afraid it isn’t possible to draw that inference from these prices, and I commend to the Cabinet Secretary this publication by Professor Gordon Hughes, professor of economics at the University of Edinburgh, who analyses this in his publication, ‘Offshore Wind Strike Prices: Behind the headlines’. His fundamental point here is that these are complicated contracts, but are fundamentally options. They’re not actually necessarily going to be realised, these projects, at the prices that have been awarded. And, at £74.75 for the Triton Knoll contract, and £57 for the Hornsea Two and Moray East contracts, the three that have recently been in the headlines in the newspapers—that would represent, if it did correspond to a fall in operating costs and construction costs of 55 per cent for offshore wind in the last five years. That is simply not credible. Even though there have been advances in turbine technology, there is no way in which costs of construction and development in offshore waters could possibly have fallen by 55 per cent in that period. In fact, to some extent, because we’re having to go further and further offshore in order to build these windfarms, then costs are likely to increase, or at least the extra costs of going into deeper waters will outweigh the technology costs. So, what we’re seeing here is a replication of what happened 20 years ago in relation to the fossil fuel obligation, because there 247 windfarm contracts were awarded, but only 57 were actually built—a sixth of the capacity that was intended. What happened there was that the early contracts that had high prices were built and the later contracts with low prices weren’t, and that’s exactly what we’re seeing here. So, this is all part of the Government’s policy—the UK Government as well as the Welsh Government—of soaking the poor. We produce nothing in global terms in carbon dioxide—Wales, probably 0.1 per cent of world emissions. We’re the poorest part of the United Kingdom, with a quarter of our households in fuel poverty, and yet the household bills of ordinary people are rising year in and year out—£115 a year at the moment in green levies on the average electricity bill. That will rise, by 2020, to £170, and, by 2030, to £245 a year in constant pounds. I think this is an appalling policy to impose greater and greater costs upon those who are least able to withstand them.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, Neil Hamilton, I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I did have a little bet when I was doing some prep for the statement today—you know, how long it would take you to mention the word ‘China’. So, I’m glad you didn’t disappoint me. But the scientific evidence is clear: climate change is happening, and greenhouse gas emissions from man are extremely likely to be the dominant cause. We have to take action now. The longer we leave it, the more expensive it becomes, on so many levels. It just poses such a great risk to everything—to economic development, to global food security, to health, and, frankly, I’ve seen what Trump wants to do in relation to the Paris agreement. I was out in Marrakech last year at COP22; I look forward to going to COP23. And you really are in the minority. I accept that we are poles apart on this, but we have renewable energy here in Wales, and it’s absolutely vital that, to achieve our decarbonisation targets, we embrace it. Offshore wind: we continue to support offshore wind. It remains one of the most developed and commercially viable technologies currently available, and I do believe that it can really significantly contribute to our renewable energy targets, and I think you referred to the contracts for difference option results, and that really confirmed that this industry is now very, very competitive, and I’m going to be working closely with the Crown estate, with any potential developers, to ensure those developments progress within the environmental limits. Talking about the contracts for difference, as I said, I really do want the UK Government—and I’ve called on the UK Government repeatedly in correspondence—to stop the ideological exclusion of onshore wind and solar from the CFD process. I really wish that they would consider our views and the impact of the decisions they’re taking on Wales when they are making these decisions on contracts for difference. I really don’t know where you think we’re going to get our energy from. We have to move away from fossil fuel. I mentioned the UK Government has announced they want to get rid of abatement for coal by 2025. We have to look at new technologies, and there will be several consultations going forward. The national marine plan is very important. I think it was David Melding that mentioned that before, and I will be getting on very quickly—certainly, within the next month, I hope to be going out to consultation on the national marine plan also.

Mike Hedges AC: I welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s statement on energy. I know that burning carbon creates carbon dioxide. I also know that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. Thus, we need to reduce our use of carbon-based fuels and reduce our carbon dioxide production, unless we want to be wading in here up to our knees in water.So, I welcome the proposed target for Wales to be generating 70 per cent of its electrical consumption from renewable energy by 2030. Two questions on this. Firstly, are intermediate targets going to be set so that progress can be checked against them and action be taken if they fall behind, or they can be increased if we’re doing better than expected? The second question is: what progress is being made on battery technology to store electricity created by wind energy at peak production time?On the Swansea bay tidal lagoon, I welcome the Minister’s commitment to continue to press the UK Government for clarity on support and a response to the Hendry review, which was unequivocal in its support for a tidal lagoon. Some of us had doubts when it was set up that it was being kicked into the long grass. What we had was the most positive report I’ve ever seen, where I think he used words such as, ‘This is a no-regrets policy; if you do it and it doesn’t work, there’s still no regrets’.The benefits it gives in design skills and the creation of supply chains—which will happen if Swansea is the first—if we wait until other countries create them, we will lose these opportunities. The first gains unique opportunities—Aarhus in Denmark with wind power. Those that follow inevitably import from the innovators. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary to put even further pressure on the Government at Westminster that we do need a tidal lagoon in Swansea? Tidal lagoons are the way forward for renewable energy.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Mike Hedges for his questions. In relation to intermediate targets, no, I’ve set those targets. However, what I will do—when I brought forward the statement on energy last December, I committed to reporting annually. So, this December, I will be bringing forward an update on the policy statement from last year. I think, as part of that policy statement, we could then give the latest data. Because as I say, the data that I was looking at for renewable energy, for instance, was 2015. So, hopefully, by December, we’ll have more updated data. So, we could build that into the annual reports.Storage is a big issue, and certainly in discussions that I’ve had with individuals, with RenewableUK et cetera, they all point to storage being something that we need to get our heads around much quicker than perhaps we are doing. So, again, those policies are being looked at and, clearly, discussions will need to go on about storage as we increase our renewable energy—both what we’re producing and usage.You’re right about the Hendry review, it certainly was a very unequivocal report, and maybe the UK Government shouldn’t have asked the question if they don’t like the answer. I don’t think I can put any more pressure than I am doing on them. As I say, the last letter I wrote was a month ago—and I’m still awaiting a response from Richard Harrington—asking him to set out a timescale. Before the election, it was Jesse Norman and Greg Clark that I was writing to. Every response I’ve had, I’m afraid, has been light on detail. But I do want to assure Members that we are putting as much pressure as we can on the UK Government to bring forward a response as soon as possible.

Paul Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, in your statement today you’ve made it clear that the Welsh Government has invested around €100 million of EU structural funds in marine energy, which I very much welcome. However, recently, it’s been brought to my attention that the Welsh Government has invested in certain marine projects off the coast of Pembrokeshire, one of which will be in the ownership of a local authority based in England.Now, some of my constituents are concerned that, if projects in Wales are run by local authorities outside Wales, then we could end up where places like Pembrokeshire, and indeed the whole of Wales, don’t actually get the local benefits from such projects. So, in the circumstances, can you tell us how you and your officials are making sure that any grant funding provided to marine projects will be reinvested in Welsh communities? And can you tell us how your department is monitoring the effectiveness of such projects to make sure that communities in Wales actually benefit? Because you refer in your statement today to the importance of community-owned projects.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Paul Davies for those questions. Certainly, monitoring is continuous. I’d be very happy to give the Member an up-to-date response in relation to the project you refer to. I think Wales is very well placed to take advantage of any of the opportunities associated with the blue economy. We have a high tidal range, for instance, and of course I want to see Welsh companies doing that, and officials absolutely know that that’s the case—that we’re happy to offer them the right support, and I think that is a very strong message to give them. I think we also need a strong message from the UK Government around support for marine energy, and I know that the developers who are actively involved in Wales at the current time in relation to marine energy have indicated an expected investment of £1.4 billion, so a significant amount. But I will write to the Member with an update on that particular one.

Joyce Watson AC: I’m really pleased to see this statement today by you, Cabinet Secretary, and I’m really pleased to see the continued support with innovation in marine energy projects, as something that I’ve been involved in for a very long time. I’m not going to repeat—I’m sure you’ll all be pleased—all that’s gone before, but I will point to one area of particular interest for me, and that is that, as part of the £1.3 billion Swansea bay city region deal signed earlier this year, £76 million has been pledged for the Pembroke Dock marine project. That will be used to develop innovation in offshore renewable marine energy technology, and that project itself has four pillars. I’m hoping that will bring some skills and innovation and training into the area that I both live in and represent. So, I’m wondering if you have any further information regarding that particular scheme in terms of when it might start and how many opportunities might be available.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don’t have those figures to hand, but you’re quite right; it’s really important that we have the innovation, we have the research and development, we make sure the training and skills work alongside these projects. It’s certainly a significant amount of money, and I obviously meet with my colleague Julie James, The Minister for skills, in relation to ensuring that we have those skills ready to go, and it’s the same with the tidal lagoon. We need to make sure that once the UK Government do give the green light, we have those skills there.

Julie Morgan AC: I welcome this statement; I think it’s absolutely essential that Wales tackles and does all it can to mitigate climate change, because I think we’ve got to accept that it’s the poorest of people in the world who suffer from what climate change is bringing to us. I think we have an absolute duty to do this, so I welcome this statement very much. I welcome the ambitious targets, the 70 per cent I welcome, and I also welcome—as many people have—the issue of local ownership, because we do know that some countries, in particular Germany, have made a much bigger step ahead than we have, and I think it’s very good if there’s going to be a drive on this. Does the Cabinet Secretary believe that there is a case, or opportunity, really, for more local government involvement in renewable energy? I’ve raised in this Chamber many times the development of the Radyr weir scheme in my constituency in Cardiff North. That’s actually been operating for a year now, and it has generated electricity equivalent of powering 500 average-sized family homes during that time, and there’s also been some downtime when they fine-tuned the mechanics, so I think in the future it will generate even more. So, could she say what future she thinks—or what opportunities there could be given to local government to work and develop this sort of scheme? And the other point I just wanted to make was that I do think it would be a good move, really, to look again at the Wales energy supply company.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Julie Morgan for those questions. You’re absolutely right about climate change; we’ve obviously got a long-standing commitment around climate change. We’re only a small country, but I’m very proud of the commitment that we’ve given on the action that we take on climate change. You mentioned Germany, and certainly, out in Marrakesh at COP22, to talk to some of the very small regions about the fantastic work they were doing around decarbonisation and renewable energy was incredible. Some of the targets they have set were—again, like ours—very ambitious, and it was good to hear how they were achieving those targets. I certainly do think there is a role for local government, and you mentioned the project in your own constituency of Cardiff North. I opened a hydro scheme that had been done in conjunction, again, with the community, the developer and also with—I think it was Merthyr Tydfil council. So, I think certainly local government do have a role to play. You will have heard my earlier answer to Simon Thomas that we haven’t absolutely closed the door on it; I just took the advice following the events that were held in March, and at the current time I don’t think it’s the right time for us to do that, but certainly we can look at it. And if it’s possible to have it as part of the consultation, I’ll be very happy to do that.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

7. 7. Debate: Data—Increasing Openness and Availability

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of Paul Davies, and amendment 4 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

The next item is the debate on data and increasing openness and availability, and I call on the Minister for Skills and Science to move the motion—Julie James.

Motion NDM6507 Jane HuttTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the Welsh Government's commitment to open data through the publication and ongoing implementation of our first ever Open Data Plan.2. Notes the progress Welsh Government has made to date, along with ongoing plans to increase the openness and availability of data.3. Supports the Welsh Government ambition to draw on legislative powers to develop guidance that encourages greater publication and use of open data across the Welsh public sector.4. Supports the Welsh Government's aim to adapt processes for acquiring goods or services to promote openness and transparency.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I’m very pleased to be opening this debate today to focus on how and why we should be increasing the openness and availability of data. I just wanted to start off by clarifying that by that I mean data that relates to non-personal and non-sensitive issues. Our involvement in the Open Government Partnership initiative demonstrates that we are committed to being a more open, accountable and responsible-to-citizens Government. As with other areas of the UK, open data plays a key role in our Government’s ability to be a more open and responsive Government. We all know that data is an extremely valuable resource in today’s world that, if made accessible, can provide numerous benefits and opportunities to both Governments and to our citizens. It’s becoming a critical part of the national infrastructure, and the benefits of a robust, open data ecosystem include improved openness, transparency and accountability, in that it provides a much better understanding of how Welsh Government and public services are performing, and how their budgets are being utilised. It can enable better planning and targeting of services, which in turn leads to increased efficiency, efficacy and savings. It can drive innovation and economic growth with the development of applications and enhance people’s daily lives, and consequently their economic ability to join in our society. It improves public empowerment and participation. It helps people make informed decisions and empowers them to participate much more actively in our society. It can also reduce the burden on Government of freedom of information requests, and help reduce the amount of data and reporting requirements that we’ve imposed on public authorities by making the information publicly and accessibly available to all of our citizens. We’ve made good progress to date. We published our first ever open data plan in March 2016, and we’re improving our statistical and spatial open data platforms, StatsWales and Lle. Indeed, our well-being of Wales report, which was published yesterday, made direct use of the StatsWales open data, leading to a significant efficiency in development and future maintenance of that site. And more recently, we’ve been focusing on openly publishing management information. However, whilst we’ve made good progress, there is still more that can be done, not only in opening up Welsh Government’s data but encouraging others to open up their data as well. For example, there is more for us to do on opening up access to management information. One area we are currently exploring is openly publishing public sector workforce data in terms of how many people are employed, at what level and so on. We’re also going to continue our implementation of the open data plan commitments. A key factor in realising the associated benefits of all of this data is to ensure that our data is actually actively being used and reused, and that’s why it’s important that we identify ways in which we can encourage innovation in use. We are starting to some reuse of our data. More recently, the Wales Audit Office used our open data in a project to provide insight for their auditors, for example. We’d very much like to see more of this and would like to encourage those with the capability and skills to fully utilise our open data sets. I want to give Members an example of what I mean by this. We, for example, publish food hygiene ratings for all of the restaurants in a particular area. At the moment, you might wander around and you might see those food hygiene ratings usefully placed on the doorways or prominently placed in the restaurants. But if you were a stranger to the area, you might not want to wander around all of the streets looking for different hygiene ratings. Because we publish the information in an open and accessible format, if you look up on an app store ‘food hygiene rating apps’, you can now get many apps—there is quite a long list of them—that will tell you where the highest and lowest food rating restaurants in the area you’re standing in are. And that’s a use—a commercial, innovative use—useful to the citizen, of open data published by the Government. It’s just a very good use of our data that’s useful to citizens. It’s not of any particular benefit to us, but it shows how you can drive improvement in citizen services by something as simple as somebody reordering it. Now, that data would have been available before, but it would have been a hugely difficult exercise for a person to actually align all of that, but you can see that a number of people have already picked up on that. So, that’s the sort of thing were trying to encourage. We’re very keen to see more of this, and we want to encourage those with the capability and skills to fully utilise our open datasets to make full use of them.We are really keen that we work with others to arrange open data challenge events, bringing together people from various backgrounds, to highlight to them the real success that they can make in their venture of using our datasets to develop this sort of citizen service.We are also developing other examples of how Welsh open data can have a positive impact and will help persuade others of the benefits of increasing the openness and availability of data. So, in conjunction with introducing guidance and adapting our processes for acquiring goods and services, we should have a real impact on the open data agenda in Wales by publishing all of that information.So, I will be supporting the first amendment. We’re committed to reducing the burden associated with collecting data and, where possible, will support this through encouraging greater publication of open data. We’re very keen to improve data sharing in Wales, and we’re looking at how we can best make use of the data sharing provisions in the new Digital Economy Act 2017. We’ll also be supporting the second amendment. The Welsh Government recognises the importance of ensuring that the data we collect meets our users’ needs. We already regularly review our statistical data collections, consulting with a full range of stakeholders. We should also ensure information we capture from public authorities for other purposes is proportionate and minimised.Unfortunately, we will not be supporting the third amendment. Whilst we aim to encourage local authorities to increase the amount of data they publish openly, we need to be mindful of the resource implications this would place on them. We are, however, working very hard with local authorities to identify what data should be published openly, including determining, for example, the feasibility of publishing expenditure over a minimum threshold.We’ll also be supporting the fourth amendment. We agree in principle that we should seek to be able to compare our performance with the rest of the UK and, indeed, with other countries as well. However, this is not always currently possible due to policy divergence. And, first and foremost, our priority must be to monitor data relevant to the Welsh policy context. So Llywydd, I'm very much looking forward to welcoming Members’ support of the principles of open data during this debate and embracing it across Welsh public life, and I also look forward to listening to your views on how we can encourage and drive forward the open data agenda to improve both the delivery of our public services and, of course, ultimately, the lives of our citizens. Diolch.

I have selected the four amendments to the motion. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendments 1, 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Amendment 1—Paul DaviesAdd as new point at end of motion:Calls on the Welsh Government to work with public, private and third sector organisations to improve data-sharing and reduce duplication in data collection across Wales.

Amendment 2—Paul DaviesAdd as new point at end of motion:Recognises the role of the Welsh Government in collaborating with key bodies and stakeholders to ensure that data collection focuses on obtaining the right information to influence and deliver positive changes in policy.

Amendment 3—Paul DaviesAdd as new point at end of motion:Believes that the Welsh Government should work to ensure that local authorities follow the example set by the Conservative-run Monmouthshire County Council in publishing all expenditure.

Amendments 1, 2 and 3 moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. And I move those amendments, as mentioned. Of course, openness and transparency are key things that my Welsh Conservative colleagues and I have long expounded the virtues of in this Chamber. A debate on increasing openness and accessibility of data is long overdue. Our first amendment aims for the Welsh Government to work with public, private and third sector organisations to improve data sharing and reduce duplication in data collection across Wales. Time and again, as AMs, we meet with organisations, particularly in the health and third sectors, and they raise issues of data duplication or non-collection with us. A classic example is that we’re on our second poverty enquiry and, throughout all the workshops, whenever we’ve met with witnesses, they’ve been very concerned about how data is collected across various organisations, how it is then shared and how the Welsh Government themselves collect and store data.For such organisations, as well as us as politicians, open data is, of course, a valuable tool for policy development, scrutiny and competition. For example, the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee found in July this year that some of the key weaknesses of the Communities First programme actually stemmed from policies that were developed and performances being monitored in the absence of any actual appropriate data. Further to this, our second amendment seeks to ensure that data collection focuses on obtaining the right information to influence and deliver positive changes in policy. As noted by the parliamentary review of health and social care in Wales, debated in the Chamber last week, data needs to be published for the public to enhance transparency, understanding and trust in the system. Our third amendment therefore calls for local authorities to follow the fine example set by the Conservative-run Monmouthshire County Council. They publish all expenditure—something we will be pushing for further in the forthcoming local government legislation.Llywydd, open data is essential to policy progression, service development and public accountability, yet, sadly, there are other basic areas in which the Welsh Government’s commitment to open data fails. And, isn’t it interesting—I didn’t get my chance to ask the question to the First Minister earlier—but in freedom of information requests that are used because of the lack of open data, the Welsh Labour Government only responded in full to just 46 per cent of those requests. That isn’t good enough for an open and transparent Government at any level.This summer, the Cardiff Open Data Institute found failings on the Welsh Government’s part in relation to the national procurement service, stating that it has no open data plan. The work on the digital framework does not consider the Government’s open data plan at all, and this is a pity because open data and procurement are perfect partners. And, of course, Leighton Andrews, a previous AM here, has actually compiled this report and I’m not sure that Members are, perhaps, even aware of this report. This has been out and published since March of this year. How this relates to local authorities, or to the people out there—our electors and taxpayers—I have no idea.One aim of the plan is to increase the Wales openness rating to four stars by May this year. Yet, nowhere on the website is this rating even noted, and the UK open government partnership national action plan 2016-18 notes that work in this area needs to be ongoing until the end of the year. The Welsh Government has been reluctant to publish information relating to the sale of land by the regeneration investment fund for Wales, as well as information on ministerial and Cabinet decisions on the Circuit of Wales.Finally, the open data plan aims to reduce the need for FOI requests and to reduce the need to aggregate data to respond to data collection requests. Yet, the Welsh Government, only months ago, insisted on disapplying legislative measures for public bodies to proactively publish facilities time through their Trade Union (Wales) Act 2017. And I’ve mentioned about how badly they respond to FOIs themselves.Llywydd, we are supportive of the aims of this debate and this plan, yet I am concerned that this document is just empty words and hollow sentiment. I therefore call on the Welsh Government to commit to ensuring that the yearly progress report on this plan by the office of the chief digital officer will be debated in this Chamber on an annual basis to ensure that all parties here are able to actually effectively scrutinise this strategy.

I call on Sian Gwenllian to move amendment 4, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth—Sian Gwenllian.

Amendment 4—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point at end of motion:Believes that performance data should be collected and published in a manner that enables comparisons with other nations of the UK.

Amendment 4 moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and I do move amendment 4. I will be using my contribution to this debate today to discuss why gathering performance-related data and publishing it in a way that can enable comparisons with other countries in the UK is important. Not only does it enable us as opposition parties to hold the Government to account, but it is also vitally important so that the Government can learn and share any good practice that exists in other nations in the UK, to ensure the best possible services for the people of Wales. I would also point to how access to data is vitally important in the field of the economy, to ensure that policy is developed on the basis of the best possible information. With regard to health, the lack of data and the quality of that data means that planning services and specific policies and getting a full picture of the performance of services in the area of health is increasingly difficult. A lack of data and transparency in the health service is a cause for concern and frustrates our ability as opposition party members to scrutinise the Government with regard to the development of alternative and better policies. Unfortunately, over the past few years, despite the recommendations of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and the report by the Nuffield Trust, there is less data available to make the comparison between Wales and other nations of the United Kingdom. For example, changes to the ambulance service targets and the way that data is collected mean that it’s no longer possible to compare where we are in Wales. This isn’t a debate in favour of restricting the freedom of Governments to pursue different policies. There is a way around this. However, it is right for us to demand that data needs to be gathered to compare the effect of different policies, especially when those policies develop along different paths. We need a Government that sees that information of a specific kind to meet specific needs is valuable as it puts together its policies, and this is true for all aspects of governance.At present, there is a lack of information with regard to the economy specifically related to Wales, and this makes it difficult for policy makers to tailor a strategy according to the requirements of the Welsh economy. Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland figures are published every year by the Scottish Government, namely data that provides a specific analysis of the public sector. In April last year, a Welsh version was published by the Wales Governance Centre, and while we were pleased to see Cardiff University publishing a specific analysis of the Welsh economy, it is vital that this isn’t a one-off and that the Government itself commissions similar work on an annual and official basis. This should include an input and output table and a full set of public sector accounts, similar to the publication in Scotland, because that would lead to better policies that would, in turn, give a boost to growth, to productivity—. Before I move on, I will take an intervention.

Adam Price AC: I’m grateful to the Member for taking this intervention. The fundamental point, of course, is that the purpose of having an open data policy is that the data should be useful, particularly to citizens. One of the examples that is quoted by the Government on its website in terms of the open data plan is those tables that summarise grants over £25,000 per annum. The problem is that they are only available month by month. They are available for years, but you do have to search on a month-by-month basis. You can’t do something as simple as inputting the name of one company to find out how much that company has received. You have to go through every single Excel file on a monthly basis. So, could I appeal to Government that something as simple as a summary of data in one file would assist people in making use of the information that is published?

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much for that specific example, which does draw attention to the problem in detail and does show clearly why we have to be much more organised and effective in the way that we gather data and use that data for the benefit of this nation. Thank you.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks to the Minister for bringing forward today’s debate. Now, the Government’s motion today looks perfectly benevolent in that nobody is really going to start arguing that we need less openness in the provision of Government data. What we do need to know, though, is what this greater openness will actually mean in practice. The future intentions of the Welsh Government in providing some new level of openness is all well and good, but how effective is their current provision of Government data and information in general?Now, Adam Price raised a very specific example just now relating to the difficulties in obtaining Government statistics on grants, but if we look at how they disseminate information in general—in particular, thinking about how the citizen can access this information—it does pose rather a lot of difficulties. In terms of Government spending, the Conservatives raised this in one of their amendments; they’re talking about the publication of spending by public bodies such as local authorities. By coincidence, yesterday I met a couple of representatives from the Marine Conservation Society and they observed that you can’t actually track the level of Welsh Government spending on marine conservation because it’s packaged as part of a general spend in the field of the environment. So, they can’t actually ascertain, themselves, how much of that pot of money is actually being spent on marine conservation. So, that’s one example of where Welsh Government openness of data does need to improve.But if we think about how the Welsh Government actually deal with information in general, they’re not, perhaps, as benevolent as today’s motion would appear and that they seem to or want to be in their aims. For instance, let’s have a look at the Government statements that we get before the Plenaries once a week. Now, it’s good that we get these, I’m not making a general complaint, but we do get them roughly an hour before—[Interruption.] It’s a courtesy, okay. Thank you for extending the courtesy, but the point is that we all know in this Chamber that we could get this information a lot earlier. We could have got this information probably at the end of last week. So, if you were really going for this policy of more openness, perhaps you could extend that to the field of how you disseminate the Government statements. We do welcome the courtesy, but if you could extend the courtesy, it would be good.Now, if we look at the Welsh Government website, which is one place where the citizen may first come across Government information, when I mentioned the Welsh Government website to a staff member today, she had an immediate reaction to it. She said, and I quote her exact words, ‘Oh, God, it’s that website where you can’t find anything.’ When I asked her to expand on this remark, she stated that the search function doesn’t appear to work properly: ‘I can never seem to find what I want there and I have to end up Googling the information.’ Another staff member observed that it’s just not kept up to date. It’s all very well being a mouthpiece for whatever the Government want to push out, but if you want to find out about Government policy, it’s the last place you would go, because it’s out of date. They’ll make an announcement, and then they won’t update the page. Recent examples from my own experiences: the housing supply taskforce, set up in 2013—the page was last updated on 4 March 2014. It would appear that that body is now  defunct, but the point is that we don’t actually know that from the Welsh Government website, because it doesn’t tell us. It seems to effectively leave things like this hanging in mid-air. It doesn’t make it clear whether the Welsh Government are doing anything in this field of activity or not. So, if this kind of information is to have any value, then the pages need to be regularly updated. Somebody should be specifically tasked with doing this, and also, defunct organisations, grants and schemes need to be removed from the website altogether. We could go on and look at other websites relating to the Government, but probably the point has been made.So, in general, we do agree with what you’re saying in your motion today, and we only hope that it’s put in practice in some meaningful way. We also agree with the Conservative amendments, which seem to be largely sensible. Now, the Minister did raise the issue that there is a resource implication if you are publishing a lot of information, and I agree that there is going to be a balance and you have to look at that. But, in general, we do agree with the Conservative amendments. The Plaid amendment also seems sensible. Yes, we should integrate our data so that, as far as possible, Welsh Government performance is comparable with that of similar public bodies. But another important point for the future may be how easily obtainable Welsh Government information will be to the layperson or the citizen, as the Minister referred to the person, as well as to the specialist. Thank you.

I call on the Minister to reply to the debate— Julie James.

Julie James AC: Well, I’m very grateful to Members for their support of the open data agenda, which is evident across the Chamber. I think there may be a little bit of confusion between what we mean by open data and open Government in this context and publication in general. I take the point about publication that people have made. I feel duty-bound—I’m sure the Llywydd won’t mind my saying so—to say that the idea of publishing an oral statement before it’s made orally is, obviously, problematic in many regards, and the whole point of an oral statement is you make it orally in the Chamber. I just wanted to reiterate that point, and that’s not at all connected to data.I thought that Adam Price made a very good point in his example. The idea of open data is that you have access to the base data in an open and accessible way that allows you to collate it in different ways to come to different conclusions. So, the example is a good one. I’m not suggesting for one minute that the Government has this completely right, and one of the reasons I wanted to bring forward this debate today was to discuss openly with Members what we mean by that and to ascertain, as we have readily ascertained, that, actually, everybody agrees with the agenda. There are nuances around it, but we all agree that the base data should be made as accessible as possible in order for people to draw a variety of conclusions from it. We do have to do that in a proportionate way, of course. We have been working with public sector bodies, with participation, for example, in the Cardiff city region open data group, and meeting with local authorities and the Wales Audit Office across Wales.We want to encourage others within the Welsh public sector, and wider public sector, to open up access and reuse our data, but also make their data more freely available. We are going to be giving consideration to the appropriateness of a non-statutory code of practice for the public sector in Wales, to enable us to work collaboratively with public sector bodies. Successful trials of that guidance might well lead to a statutory code of practice, but that is something we want to produce together with our local government partners in a spirit of co-production, so that we understand and they understand where we are now, and where we can go to easily and fluidly in the future without an enormous cost to that—not in financial terms, but in terms of the person power needed to do it.Janet Finch-Saunders alluded to the procurement processes. I absolutely agree with her that adapting our procurement processes will encourage our suppliers to publish their data openly and make use of our open data sources to make that a more transparent process. [Interruption.]

Adam Price AC: On that very point, I was wondering if it would be possible for the Minister to answer now or to have a word with her Cabinet Secretary colleague on whether open data, or a commitment to open data, will form a part of the commitment under the rail franchise, because there there is a very real gain to be had in terms of integration between bus and train services, if it is designed in such a way as data is automatically shared between different transport providers into the future.

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely. I think the point of the debate, really, is that we need to look backwards a little bit at our systems, but as we develop new systems, we need to develop them in the spirit of open data insofar as that’s possible and permissible and doesn’t reveal any personal or sensitive information. So, I think I can absolutely say that, and we need to design those systems in in the first place. After all, we’re in a change in our culture and practice in our society about how we use data and how we regard it, and we need to make sure that we fully realise the benefits of the data sets available to us in planning services and reviewing our efficiency and effectiveness, and then rewarding ourselves, if you like, with the improvements that come from that renewed use of data. So, I think that’s another very good point. But as I was saying, in terms of the procurement process, for example, one of the things we want to encourage is not just the open supply of data from the Government, in terms of what is procures, but actually open data from our suppliers, in terms of where they are procuring from and what their processes are, so that people can put two and two together and not make five in terms of the applications that can arise from that.I very much wanted to end on that point, really. What this is actually about is about holding us to account and holding us accountable for the data that we produce. It’s not the same as publication of policies and so on. This is about the base data underneath that, so you can see—. When we put forward a policy on open data, for example, you can go back and look at the data we currently hold and see whether we’re holding true to that. You don’t just look at when we publish the policy itself. We have a challenging economic climate; we need to make the most of the resources available to us all. One of the new resources in the twenty-first century is indeed data, and the Government needs to make sure that as we create more data than ever before, it’s imperative that we make that data accessible, useable, reusable, innovative. So, I’m very, very grateful that Members embrace the agenda, that we’ve started the transition, if you like, from understanding the base data that we’re talking about here, how it translates into our policy agenda, how we can publish that in a reusable form that will drive the innovative businesses in Wales that we need for the future, and also drive the public service improvement that we’d all like to see. Diolch, Llywydd.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? Amendment 1 is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 1 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree amendment 2. Does any Member object? Amendment 2 is therefore agreed.

Amendment 2 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree amendment 3. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. 8. Voting Time

And that brings us to voting time, and we will move immediately, therefore, to a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, eight abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, amendment 3 is not agreed.

Amendment not agreed: For 12, Against 27, Abstain 8.

Result of the vote on amendment 3 to motion NDM6507.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 4, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 48, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 4 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 48, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 4 to motion NDM6507.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Motion NDM6507 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the Welsh Government’s commitment to open data through the publication and ongoing implementation of our first ever Open Data Plan.2. Notes the progress Welsh Government has made to date, along with ongoing plans to increase the openness and availability of data.3. Supports the Welsh Government ambition to draw on legislative powers to develop guidance that encourages greater publication and use of open data across the Welsh public sector.4. Supports the Welsh Government’s aim to adapt processes for acquiring goods or services to promote openness and transparency.5. Calls on the Welsh Government to work with public, private and third sector organisations to improve data-sharing and reduce duplication in data collection across Wales.6. Recognises the role of the Welsh Government in collaborating with key bodies and stakeholders to ensure that data collection focuses on obtaining the right information to influence and deliver positive changes in policy.7. Believes that performance data should be collected and published in a manner that enables comparisons with other nations of the UK.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 47, no abstentions, none against, and therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

Motion as amended agreed: For 47, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6507 as amended.Click to see vote results

And that brings today’s proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:26.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Vikki Howells: What actions will the Welsh Government take during this Assembly term to improve user experiences on public transport services in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Transport for Wales can help us deliver a safe, efficient, cost-effective and sustainable transport system. We are already moving forward to reshape public transport infrastructure and services across Wales through the next Wales and borders franchise, south-east metro, the A470 corridor study, and the Valleys delivery plan.

Dawn Bowden: Will the First Minister make a statement on the availability of employment in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney?

Mark Drakeford: Between 2011 and 2017, the employment rate in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney increased by 6 per cent, above both the Wales and UK increases of 5 per cent and 4 per cent respectively.

Mohammad Asghar: Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's strategy for supporting businesses in South Wales East?

Mark Drakeford: Our prosperity for all strategy sets out actions we will take to improve our wealth and well-being, spread opportunity and tackle inequality. Later this autumn, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure will publish an economic action plan setting out further detail on how we’ll implement and deliver those commitments.

Nathan Gill: Will the First Minister make a statement on housing need in North Wales?

Mark Drakeford: We are making a significant investment in all housing tenures in all areas of Wales, including the north. This provides continued support for small local developers, social housing and Help to Buy—Wales, as well as through new schemes aiming to make home ownership more accessible and support innovation.

Jeremy Miles: What role does the First Minister anticipate for modular houses in the process of fulfilling the need for homes in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Potentially a big one. Modular homes offer speed of construction, often in factories. They can be very affordable when produced at scale, offer excellent energy efficiency and flexibility of design. Jobs and training opportunities could be significant too. Our innovative housing programme will test different models to assess what works best.

Neil McEvoy: Will the First Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government ensures transparency through the Freedom of Information Act 2000?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government ensures transparency through the Freedom of Information Act 2000 by complying with its provisions and only withholding information where it is legitimate to do so.

John Griffiths: How will the Welsh Government prepare for the opportunities arising from the abolition of tolls on the Severn crossings?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government has long recognised the significant economic benefits and opportunities for Wales with the removal of the tolls. We have continuously lobbied the UK Government to abolish them and are pleased they have finally listened.

Huw Irranca-Davies: Will the First Minister make a statement on the importance of Flying Start provision to the Welsh Government’s priorities in the fifth Assembly?

Mark Drakeford: Flying Start is central to the Welsh Government’s approach to the early years. Early years is one of the cross-cutting priorities set out in ‘Prosperity for All: The National Strategy’. We have made a clear commitment to the continuation of the Flying Start programme for this Assembly term.

Lynne Neagle: Will the First Minister make a statement on the impact of welfare reform in Torfaen?

Mark Drakeford: We have undertaken comprehensive research to assess the impact of the UK Government’s welfare reforms in Wales. This includes analysis at a local authority-area level, and shows Torfaen is amongst the areas hardest hit by the reforms already implemented. This is also the case for the ongoing reforms.